William Joyce Part 2: The Making of "Lord Haw Haw", Hitler's Voice in Britain

In part two of this double episode on William Joyce, James Crossland and Jayne Friend explain how he became Lord Haw Haw, the infamous Nazi broadcaster who transmitted propaganda from Germany to Britain during the Second World War.

James and Jayne follow Joyce's journey from fleeing Britain in 1939 to becoming the most recognizable English-language voice of Nazi propaganda. The episode examines how Joyce built his Lord Haw Haw persona, the role of Nazi radio broadcasts during the war, and why millions of Britons listened to Germany Calling despite knowing it was enemy propaganda. It also traces Joyce's personal decline, drunkenness, his unbending loyalty to Hitler's regime, his hilarious capture after the fall of Nazi Germany, and his eventual execution for treason in 1946.

What's covered in this episode

• The introduction of Defence Regulation 18B and how British authorities planned to detain suspected Nazi sympathizers at the outbreak of war in 1939.
• How William Joyce was warned by MI5 officer and former associate Maxwell Knight and fled Britain with his wife Margaret Joyce before his arrest.
• The Joyces' arrival in Berlin and their connection to Dorothy Eckersley, a well-connected British fascist living in Nazi Germany.
• How Dorothy Eckersley's links to Unity Mitford and influential Nazi circles helped William Joyce secure a broadcasting role in Germany.
• The structure of Nazi propaganda under Joseph Goebbels and the Ministry of Propaganda's control of radio broadcasting.
• How Joyce joined English-language radio broadcasts aimed at British audiences and developed the Lord Haw Haw persona.
• The origins of the Lord Haw Haw nickname and the wider network of English-speaking Nazi broadcasters including Wolf Mittler and Norman Baillie-Stewart.
• The creation of Germany Calling and how Nazi propagandists used British voices to increase credibility with listeners in the United Kingdom.
• Comparisons between Nazi wartime broadcasting, British political warfare operations, and modern propaganda techniques.
• How Joyce exploited fears during the Blitz by exaggerating bomb damage, government failures, anti-war sentiment, and political divisions inside Britain.
• The false claim that the aircraft carrier HMS Ark Royal had been sunk and how Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain publicly denied the story.
• Joyce's attacks on Winston Churchill, criticism of British leadership, and use of rumours, conspiracy theories, and sensational stories to attract listeners.
• His promotion of theories surrounding Pearl Harbor, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Anglo-American relations, and alleged conspiracies involving the British Empire.
• Why millions of Britons listened to Germany Calling and how wartime distrust, censorship concerns, and dissatisfaction with official information contributed to its popularity.
• The luxurious lifestyle enjoyed by William and Margaret Joyce within Nazi Germany's elite social circles during the early years of the war.
• The couple's alcoholism, affairs, violent relationship, and personal decline as Germany's military fortunes worsened.
• William Joyce's book Twilight Over England and its defence of fascism and Nazism.
• The impact of major turning points including Operation Barbarossa, the Battle of the Atlantic, Allied operations in North Africa, and the Allied invasion of Sicily on Joyce's credibility.
• Accounts from fellow Nazi collaborator Eric Pleasants describing Joyce's physical and psychological deterioration by the final years of the war.
• Joyce's final radio broadcast on 30 April 1945, the same day Adolf Hitler committed suicide in Berlin.
• The collapse of the Third Reich, the Flensburg Government under Karl Dönitz, and the final days of senior Nazi officials.
• How British soldiers identified and captured William Joyce near Flensburg after recognizing his distinctive voice and facial scar.
• Joyce's trial at the Old Bailey, the legal arguments surrounding his nationality, and the treason charges brought against him.
• Why his British passport and oath of allegiance to the Crown became central to the prosecution's case.
• William Joyce's execution at Wandsworth Prison on 3 January 1946 and his status as the last person executed in Britain for high treason.
• Margaret Joyce's detention, release, later life, and death from alcoholism in 1972.
• The lasting legacy of Lord Haw Haw as a symbol of fascist collaboration, propaganda, treason, and political extremism during the Second World War.

What's mentioned in this episode:

William Joyce, Lord Haw Haw, James Crossland, Jayne Friend, Margaret Joyce, Maxwell Knight, MI5, Defence Regulation 18B, Oswald Mosley, British Union of Fascists, British Fascisti, Nazi Germany, Third Reich, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Goebbels, Ministry of Propaganda, Dorothy Eckersley, Peter Eckersley, BBC, Unity Mitford, Wolf Mittler, Norman Baillie-Stewart, Germany Calling, Blitz, Winston Churchill, Neville Chamberlain, Munich Crisis, Munich Agreement, Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia, Czechia, Second World War, World War II, Pearl Harbor, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Anglo-American relations, conspiracy theories, HMS Ark Royal, Royal Navy, Battle of the Atlantic, Operation Barbarossa, North Africa Campaign, Allied invasion of Sicily, Operation Husky, Eric Pleasants, Flensburg, Flensburg Government, Karl Dönitz, Albert Speer, Berlin, Old Bailey, Wandsworth Prison, high treason, British passport, oath of allegiance, Galway, Ireland, propaganda, fascism, Nazism, collaboration, censorship, wartime broadcasting, political warfare, psychological warfare, radio propaganda, treason, British Empire, Nazi collaborators

00:00 Introduction: William Joyce, Lord Haw Haw and Nazi Germany

04:15 Defence Regulation 18B: Why Britain Wanted William Joyce Arrested

09:00 Escape to Berlin: How William and Margaret Joyce Fled Britain in 1939

14:30 Joseph Goebbels and Nazi Propaganda: Joyce Joins Germany Calling

20:45 Who Was Lord Haw Haw? The Voice of Nazi Radio Broadcasting

27:15 The Blitz, Churchill and Propaganda: How Joyce Targeted British Morale

34:30 HMS Ark Royal, Pearl Harbor and WWII Conspiracy Theories

41:00 Hitler's War Turns Bad: Alcoholism, Decline and Twilight Over England

48:00 Hitler's Death and the Collapse of the Third Reich

55:00 Capture, Treason Trial and Execution of William Joyce

#WWII #propaganda #lordhawhaw

Thanks to SOULFULJAMTRACKS for their tune "Dark Halloween"

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History's Devils is a history podcast exploring the lives of murderers, charlatans, psychopaths, dictators, war criminals, tyrants, demagogues, revolutionaries, cult leaders, conquerors, fraudsters, and other controversial figures.

History's Devils is hosted by James Crossland, professor of international history and author of:

Rogue Agent: From Secret Plots to Psychological Warfare, the Untold Story of Robert Bruce Lockhart

The Rise of Devils: Fear and the Origins of Modern Terrorism...

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:15

We're back. It's History's Devils. It's part two of William Joyce, aka Lord Ho-Haw. I'm James Crosslin. She's Jane Friend. And we are about to take a trip to the Third Reich.

SPEAKER_04 0:30

Excited. It's like a Jet 2 holiday.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Yeah, it's somehow a worse Jet 2 holiday than the worst Jet 2 holiday you ever had. Yeah, somehow. So um we left off in part one, which if you haven't listened to it, go do it. Otherwise, this episode won't make a whole lot of sense. But we uh we left off with Joyce, William Joyce, having rationalized to himself the decision to turn his back on Britain and leave for the Third Reich. Basically, he wanted Britain to become a Nazi fied country by 1939. The chances of that uh were looking slim to none. So Joyce decides he's gonna go full Hitler and banks on Germany winning the war. And he banks on his decision to become a full-blown Nazi, basically be being vindicated. So that's his philosophical journey, let's call it, into Hitler's arms. How does William Joyce physically get to Nazi Germany? Well, in early 1939, the British government passes something called Defense Regulation 18B, which is an act of parliament. This legislation authorizes the detainment of suspected fifth colonists who might be working for Nazi Germany. Uh the edict is that they will be detained in the event of war, which by 1939 most people think is imminent. Remember, just for context here, we've had the Munich crisis since September 1938, where Neville Chamberlain buys a stay of execution, basically, with Hitler by giving him big chunks of Czechoslovakia, the Sudetenland. Hitler reneges on that deal, invades the rest of Czechia in in March 1939. After that, everyone's like, well, this guy ain't gonna, we we can't trust this guy. War is gonna happen. And that's when you get Defense Regulation 18B really really coming into fore, is this preparing for what's gonna happen when Britain has to fight Germany. And this means that when Britain enters the war with Germany on the 3rd of September 1939, British fascists with suspected allegiance to Hitler are rounded up, or at least they're meant to be. This will be a shocker, but uh the British state bureaucracy moves rather slowly. This is not some overnight roundup of fascists. This this process is a bit drawn out. Mosley, you know, the the number one fascist, he is not collard until into 1940. Joyce is in many respects higher up the list of targets than Mosley, which is interesting. He was meant to be collared in September, like the second the war starts, but he's tipped off by Maxwell Knight, who I mentioned briefly in the previous episode was a mate of his from his time back at the British Fascisti. There's a whole big story with Maxwell Knight, but just to put it in in an abbreviated form, Maxwell Knight was both a member of the British Fascisti and a member of MI5. He started working for MI5 uh as an asset in the 1920s. By the 1930s, he's he's a pretty high-up member of MI5, and he's actually working against the fascists. He has quite a f quite a philosophical journey, this guy, quite a political journey. But by the 1930s, he he is very much working to keep an eye on suspected Hitler sympathizers in Britain. But he's still an old running buddy of Joyce's. They're still friends, and there's a lot of evidence to suggest that he actually places a call to Joyce and warns him that the police are coming for him and that he needs to get the hell out of Dodge. And and his wife, Margaret, Joyce's wife, Margaret, who we mentioned in the previous episode, she's already been in his ear about going to Nazi Germany for a while. He's already basically decided that's where his future lies. So they get out of there, they flee Germany, and uh they arrive just before I I think it is the outbreak of war. What's happening with these guys when they get to Germany, though? I mean, this is the thing that they arrive with with basically nada. Like they they're they're just they're literal refugees in in many respects.

SPEAKER_04 4:28

Well, yes and no. I mean, they so they've they they've bought their one-way tickets to Berlin, right? They've got on their train, they've they've gone to Germany. They arrive without much of a plan. So I think they arrive in, I think it's sort of like late August 1939. So they don't really have much of a plan. Um, but they're there for a couple of weeks, if that. And they sort of they quickly ingratiate themselves into society. They are at a a party on one occasion, and um they meet a very useful contact, a woman who is extremely well connected by the name of Dorothy Eckersley. Now, um she's she had a very interesting life in herself. She um she was actually married to a chap called Peter Eckersley, who was a chief engineer at the BBC. So kind of radio broadcasting is is kind of in the blood by this point. But she is she's uh uh quite a prominent, well-connected British fascist, and she's now living in Germany. So she's very pro-Nazi. Um, and she'd actually, I think she had donated money to the National Socialist League previously.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

She's a keen supporter, which was Joyce's uh outfit, right?

SPEAKER_04 5:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think so she'd she'd sent money to support that, and she's very well connected to the point at which she is connected to a lady called Unity Mitford.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Now we we had to come across a Mitford at some point in this story.

SPEAKER_04 6:07

This is inevitable, okay. Um, but particularly Unity Mitford. So she's really quite a despicable person. She um, and I I don't know what you think. Is it worth us talking about her in another in her own episode?

SPEAKER_00 6:22

There's an there's an episode on on this lady. There's definitely an episode to be had on Unity Mitford.

SPEAKER_04 6:28

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So we'll we'll reserve.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

We'll get to that. We'll get to that at some point.

SPEAKER_04 6:33

All the juicy details we'll reserve, but just to give you a little bit of context. So um she's one of, I think there were six sisters in all. Um there's actually been a TV show about the the Mitford sisters, so if you've seen that, um, but but they are uh an arist aristocratic family. Unity Mitford is a is a an ardent fascist, um, she's a socialite, she hates pretty much everybody, but loves the Nazis. I think it's fair to say. She went to the Nuremberg rallies. Um, she'd been inspired, essentially. And even though she sort of f physically left and came back and forth between here and Germany, she she psychologically had checked out of Britain.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Um, and she's gonna spend all of her time in a perpetual Nazi rally.

SPEAKER_04 7:20

Pretty much.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

That's her dream. Drinking drinking champagne poured by by Da Fuhrer himself, if possible.

SPEAKER_04 7:27

Yeah, and and I think it's fair to say she's absolutely obsessed, and she's part, she becomes part of Hitler's inner circle, and she sort of falls in love with Hitler. And anyway, she she's she's part of this this broad circle that's really well connected to Hitler's regime. Um, and as I said, part of this is this lady, Dorothy Eckersley. So with her connections, she manages to get Joyce an interview for the role of sort of a radio presenter, essentially, at the third right shortwave radio service. And this is part of a network that provides news shows for um for Ministry of Propaganda, which we'll come on to in a sec. But um, this seems like a this is like the only option for Joyce right now. This is this is a potentially a good job. So he goes for this interview um in September of 1939, and he's asked to just read a story, a new story. And at first, he doesn't sound fantastic, his voice is kind of high-pitched and a bit nasally. Um, but there must be something about him in this interview because he gets the gig as part of the English language radio broadcasting.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

It's the scar. Even though that's not going to come across to the radio, they seem when they go, look at look at that scar. Well, he he's gotta be he's gotta be a good chap.

SPEAKER_04 8:48

He's he's I mean, he's got a face for radio as as well.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Definitely, definitely.

SPEAKER_04 8:53

Um but despite the fact, you know, maybe they weren't initially impressed with with his style, there is absolutely something about him that they see that they can utilize. Now, I think it's um it's important just to give a little overview of of how Nazi propaganda is organized at this time. Um so when when the Nazis come to power, they they take control of the radio networks and they're all kind of rolled into one. And these are under the control of Joseph Goebbels, um, who's heading up the propaganda ministry. Um, and he's really the the the master of of Nazi propaganda. He organizes the rallies, you know, he he is the the puppet master. And this is incredibly important that they have this really efficient system of propaganda at this time. Because as you rightly said earlier, fashion fashion fascism is built on this kind of performative aspect. It's um it's primarily uh it's it's theatre, and propaganda is theatre. And he sees the potential for taking basically any anything that's fact and twisting it, and the potential in fake news and putting out conspiracy theories. And and Hitler is a big, big proponent of this, you know, he understands the value of propaganda really well, and it's and it's very tightly controlled, it's very tightly controlled as part of the Nazi regime to the point where I think it actually became illegal to listen to radio that was broadcast from outside of Germany. Um so this is kind this is kind of well established by the time Joyce arrives there, and and and sort of the key tenet of of the propaganda, radio propaganda is just the repetition, just repetition of news, repetition of um very distorted facts. Um, and there's a belief that uh it's a really crude and simplistic notion that if you take a straightforward message and you say it enough times, it eventually becomes true.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

And I mean this this is how propaganda works, though. I mean, this is the like modern-day news stations that veer away from news towards being propaganda. Remember someone once said that you know, if you if you leave if you just leave Fox News on all day, it will it will burn the Fox News logo into your television because it's just it's just there constantly 24-7, the same, the same three. I I I forget what it is, but they have a rule where it's like we only actually run like four stories a day. And that's over the course of 24 hours, and you just keep repeating and repeating and repeating the thing. You get the same different people saying the same stuff over and over again. And that's the concept here with with Goebbels and his propaganda, is that is that it is going to be constant repetition about not just the obviously the omniscience about all Hitler, but stuff about just how well everything's going. How how you know you well done, Germany, you're back to the right horse. This this guy knows what he's doing. We're entering into this war, we're fully prepared for it, we're gonna win it. Obviously, we're gonna win it. The corrupt liberal democracies can can offer no resistance. And it's it's an it's an evocative idea, and it's one that obviously Joyce can just look at. Doesn't have to do any work trying to understand it, he just has to turn up and do his thing.

SPEAKER_04 12:21

Yeah, exactly. And and it it's it's interesting that behind all most elements of of propaganda, behind all messages, there is a grain of truth. Um, and they become really adept, and he becomes really adept at uh exploiting that. So particularly pulling on sort of insecurities, domestic insecurities within Britain and tensions and and almost making those gaps in society a bit a bit bigger. Um, and and he's got an understanding, of course, of how how Britain actually functions and what it's actually like to live there. So he is perfectly placed, he is the right person. Um, in in in a whole, I should say, in a whole network of English speakers and yeah, that's an important point.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Like he is not the only guy. A big part of the strategy of the propaganda is to use Britons because it's obviously if if you're a German broadcasting in accented English to English listeners, they're just gonna go, well, that's just some German saying German things. But if it's if it's if it's a if it's an English person, you're like, well, okay, they're they're one of our people. And to your point, like the fact that he actually knows, you know, the distance between, I don't know, St Albans and Central London, or you know, just just little local knowledge like that that a German broadcaster is not gonna know. This this is important. This this adds to the authenticity and and propaganda, despite being a whole bunch of horseshit and lies, authenticity, you have to have the veneer at least of authenticity for it to work, and that's his value to the Germans.

SPEAKER_04 13:57

Yeah, absolutely. As as well as his persona, of course. Now, he doesn't just land there fully formed. He's as as we've said previously, he's had years and years of practice of public speaking, and he's got this very dramatic persona when he's speaking. But he wasn't the only person, as for as we said, doing this. There were there were other people who are also broadcasting in English who could maybe convincingly pull this off. And so so one of those names in the mix was a guy called Wolf Mittler, who was born in Germany, but obviously spoke English. But then we have this like silly, haughty accent.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Yeah, his version of English is to basically take take on the persona of landed gentry because everyone's got a ha yeah, go shoot some pheasants, what? Everyone's got that impression, yes, and that's basically what he's doing, yeah. And it's it's a bit over the top, to say the least.

SPEAKER_04 15:03

But there's there's also another guy which I think um is who's worth a mention, which is a guy called Norman Bailey Stewart, um, who was who was uh who was another name in the hat of of like you know, who who is this mythical people that we now come to know as whore?

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Lord whore is gonna be he's gonna be regarded in the in the British press.

SPEAKER_04 15:26

Yeah. So um, and so the the the the name Lord Hoore is is attributed to to several individuals, all of whom are Nazi sympathizers, um, you know, they they are doing the same job essentially. Um but he's he's got this persona and he's got the the voice down pat. Um even though actually his his utility is the fact he's British, even though he's really not, he's American.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

This is what's so funny about this. He's he's American enthusiast for the British Empire by way of Ireland, and here he is in Germany doing a a posh over-the-top British accent, and assuming and assuming this persona of Lord Hohor. So it's quite it's quite a journey, but as you say, there's I I guess because because the accent, if you ever listen to Lord Hohor recordings, and they are out there, but you you listen to them and it does sound ridiculous, it does sound like we're doing a sort of drunken P. GG Woodhouse parody with lots of gears and nah all that, but but it there is still uh authenticity is probably too strong a word, but there is still something there when you listen to it, and you go, well, I can buy that this is actually some well-to-do English person, someone someone with something to lose, who has decided, you know what, I've got the estate, I've got the I've got the grounds, I've got the the the hounds and the grounds and the pheasants and the blah blah blah. But I I'm gonna I'm gonna cash all that in and I'm gonna come over to Germany, I'm gonna help out Hitler because I believe in this. And I think that that was the the core of this character was that it was it was meant to be it was meant to be over the top, but at the same time it was meant to put this sort of niggling because I this is this is uh this problem to this day that you know that there's a reason why when you get a job at the Bebs, if if if your if your accent isn't isn't Thames Valley, they're gonna hammer it into you. And it's because Britain is hardwired to be deferential to people who talk proper. And so that's the and and that was even more so back in the day. So so it's that idea of you know, this is a this is one of our societal betters who has nonetheless thrown himself in with Hitler. Yeah, it's gonna be unnerving.

SPEAKER_04 17:41

He he he speaks well, he seems to know what he's talking about, he's got this um knowledge of the inner workings of Britain. And for those that were tuning in to these English language, these these these Nazi propaganda broadcasts, there'll be different reasons for doing that. Uh sometimes it was entertainment, um, but sometimes it was maybe there's a grain of truth in this.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

But this is how propaganda works. I mean, I mean, most propaganda is entertaining. I mean, I I've I watch Fox News for the longs. I don't I don't watch it because I think it's news, I watch it because I'm like, I want to see what what the hell is wrong with these people, what it is they're saying. Yeah. Um, and there are a lot, and now I'm not gonna buy into what they're saying on there because there's no one's nonsense, but there's other other folks who will watch it to be entertained, and then again to the point of repetition, you watch it to be entertained, you watch it to be entertained, and before you know it, the entertainment starts to become something where you sort of you you you you internalize it and you go, Oh, yeah, yeah, that they're actually right about this stuff. I'm I'm both entertained and informed. How wonderful. What a wonderful mix! And that's that's what that's what the Lord Ho-Haw character is trying to do. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:52

And and and there was this deep fear that potentially, yeah, the people that that were vulnerable to this would would eventually start believing it. Um and um, of course, we mustn't forget Margaret, she deserves another mention at this point because she is still there along for the ride, but um she also becomes a part of Joyce's persona as it develops. Um so she gets she becomes known as um Lady Haw. And she is also working on broadcasts.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

I bet she loved this.

SPEAKER_04 19:24

Well, I I don't know. I I read that she she was primarily doing like, you know, like uh pieces that would interest women, you know. This is this is kind of uh how you call it.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Stuff about the home.

SPEAKER_04 19:37

Yeah, it's like domestic things, but still it's a it's a platform for her. Um and she she is supporting this kind of you know mythology as well that is in the in in the British press that is reporting on this.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

So his show is called Germany Calling, and I want to talk a little bit about what what this show actually was, the kind of content he's putting out there. Its purpose, as mentioned, was to broadcast into Britain with Joyce and other English language presenters feeding propaganda to a British audience. So this is not for German consumption, which is an important point because when I think about this, I I think a good contemporary analogy would be something like Russia Today, which again, I I used to I used to watch Russia Today before it was banned. And the thing about Russia Today that's notable is it's called Russia Today. Not once do they discuss anything about Russia. Nothing to you you will never hear Russia mentioned on that program, um, at least not the inner workings of it, because it's all about stories about the EU, about America, about Britain, about all these crumbling liberal democracies that are falling apart, and they get they get uh Americans and they get Europeans and they get and they get Brits on there to broadcast this stuff. It's the same, it's the same structure as the whore. You you get a familiar to tell you your country is going to the dogs. That's that's what you do. So that's what that's what Germany calling is. It should also be mentioned that Britain has its own form of propaganda like this that is being run via a clandestine organization called the Political Warfare Executive that's set up in 1942, and they have fake news radio stations. There's about 18 of them, I think, at the at their maximum, broadcasting, usually from the Bedfordshire countryside, not just into the Reich, but into Belgium and occupied France and Italy, using speakers from those countries speaking in the native language. And they are broadcasting stuff like, for example, there's the the German Farmers program, which comes on at 5 a.m. when German farmers are coming up. And you got this German speaker who's who's claiming like he's someone in Germany broadcasting, even though he's broadcasting from Britain under with with scripts provided by the British government and the intelligence services. And he's saying, Hey, German farmers, isn't it terrible that your grain is being requisitioned for this? Fruitless battle on the Eastern Front to feed the Wehrmacht. Uh, why don't you withhold some of your grain from the Nazis? That's that sort of thing. You know, that's that's a crude example. That's one of many examples. There's more sophisticated forms of propaganda. And this is kind of what Joyce is doing. His stuff, as I say, views more towards more towards entertainment than that. Usually has a daily theme, and the theme is built around reality. And this is the art of good propaganda. You cannot just come out and say, hey everyone, the sky's red. Because people look up at the sky and go, hang on a minute, it's actually blue. This this is nonsense. You need to align your lies to something that's actually happening, that kernel of truth we mentioned. So during the Blitz, he's very successful, whore is. This is where he builds the whore character because during the Blitz, you've got flagging morale in Britain, uh dissension against Churchill. And again, we have this wonderful myth of the Blitz that we all roll up our sleeves and we get behind Churchill, and that's nonsense. There were plenty of people going, fuck this, we need to make a peace with Germany. We cannot tolerate this. This is this is bad. Um, and there were plenty of people who who were, you know, uh trying to profit off the blitz and and and not you know doing the best interest of the country. Uh the blitz is more complex than it appears. And Joyce, I think, I think understands this and he he plays into that. A lot of his shows at this time are he's inflating the the extent to which the blitz is getting people down. He's inflating the extent of dissension against Churchill. He's spreading rumors about AA guns not having enough shells, about you know, there's anti-government protests that are happening in Birmingham, there's an army base in Aldershot that's been vandalized with people uh you know calling for peace with Germany, that sort of thing. There are there are demands amongst parties, there are whispers amongst political parties that there's going to be a coup against Churchill to make peace, all this sort of stuff. And again, there's there's there's there's a bit of truth in all this. There is that hum of dissent in Britain, but he is is is putting it on steroids, he's exacerbating it, he's making it seem like a bigger deal than it is. With the idea that people who are already kind of feeling that way in Britain, when they hear this, they'll go, okay, it's okay to feel this because clearly this is a widespread belief.

SPEAKER_04 24:16

Yeah, yeah. And and that comes back to what I said earlier about he's he's so good at identifying those those rifts in society, and he and he widens those gaps. Um, as you say, on different themes. And then and then it was like casually dropping in, just oh, by the way, this has happened. This is this is part of the war has happened. Like, you know, sort of like things about the military and and navy and whatnot.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

Oh, by the way, a barrage balloon balloon uh came down and killed 16 children, and the government had done nothing about it. Like, yeah, it's stuff like that where you just you just throw in a lie, but you can believe it in the context. That's it. Like it's a believable lie because of the context of the blitz at the time.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

And one of his best flat-out lies, one I enjoyed, was his claim in 1939 that the Archroyal, which is an aircraft carrier, was it flagship of the Royal Navy or close to?

SPEAKER_04 25:08

Yeah, actually, I don't know. I should know that. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

It's a big it's a big deal in the Royal Navy.

SPEAKER_04 25:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

The Ark Royal, um, he claims that it's been sunk. And which would be a dent to morale, you know, national scandal equivalent to today, if you know, like the Queen Elizabeth, the current flagship of the Royal Navy, if that just sinks, that'd be it would be like, Jesus, you know, what what do we do now? Sort of thing. And it's it's such a convincing lie in the context that Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain actually has to address this publicly and refute the allegation and say, look, sorry, folks, that this is fake news, basically. Uh the Ark Royal has not been sunk. Now, the fun fact is, well, it's not fun because people died, but the Ark Royal is actually sunk in November 1941. Um Gibraltar, it's somewhere somewhere in the Western Med, I think. Yeah, yeah, I think it's sunk by a U-boat. And and where when it's sunk, because he's he's claimed so many times before that it's sunk, there are some people who don't actually believe that it's been sunk when it's actually sunk. Because this guy's been lying about it for so long.

SPEAKER_04 26:09

But it's it's that sort of like crying wolf thing, isn't it? Because it's like already the Prime Minister has come out and said, no, no, no, it's fine. And so everyone's expecting, like, oh no, it it's fine, it's not sunk. Um, but I I think we can't overstate the impact of this. The fact that you know the the the arch royal uh any any huge ship is it it has more value than just it's practical, right? It it's an email, symbolic it's symbolic of the power of the nation, and the the fact that you know this could be sunk would be a tremendous blow to morale, huge. Um, so when it does actually happen, of course, it's it's a tragedy anyway. But um it was so important to counter this, to say on that on that on that occasion we said it's been sunk. No, no, no, it's not, it's fine, everything's fine.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

So it's that thing of whore, he knows what pressure points to to stick his thumb into.

SPEAKER_04 27:01

He knows what will make people panic.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So much so, in fact, that reputedly some of whor's listeners actually commit suicide, uh, particularly during the the the height of the blitz in in uh sort of the the summer and fall of of 1940. Such was that sense of fatalistic dread and and the way he's again sort of inflating the scale of the the destruction and the scale creating this this idea that it's not just that the the bombs are raining down on on British cities, which they were, but that the government has no response and that the government is in disarray and that and that the people who are meant to be protecting you cannot. You can see how that would create uh fatalism in in people's minds, and that's the whole point of what he's doing. Another theme of Lord Hohor's Germany calling uh was Anglo-American relations, which is a an important pressure point that he's identified. Joyce claimed that the war in the Pacific was spurred on by Churchill and Roosevelt trying to provoke Japan, inspired, of course, by Jewish warmongers in New York. Joyce's line was this: America always wanted the war. Roosevelt wanted the Pearl Harbor attack of December 1941 to happen as part of a great conspiracy, whereby the already overstretched British Empire would then be dragged into a conflict in Asia. America would come riding to the rescue there, and in the end, they would supplant the British Empire. Now, this was not an uncommon idea. In fact, it remains a cherished notion of the far-right fringe to this day that America's whole business in the Second World War was about shitting up Britain and inheriting the earth from the Empire. So Joyce was kind of pushing on an open door there with that suggestion. He was also peddling through that theory, Pearl Harbor conspiracies, which I think is interesting given the kind of show Germany calling was. This all speaks to the enduring appeal of conspiracy theories in this kind of programming, because you know, you got Alex Jones and his Sandy Hook conspiracy theories. That created an audience for him. The Pizzagate conspiracy theory that created an audience. Joyce peddling the idea that Britain's engagement in the war with Japan was basically a stitch-up by the Americans and a conspiracy theory. That too found an audience, particularly amongst imperial diehards who were looking at America and going, yeah, they're coming for our empire. So again, he's he's clever. He he knows how to combine the lies, like the Pearl Harbor conspiracy, exaggerations about damage done in bombing rains, losses in the fighting in North Africa. He's able to interweave that with factual criticisms of the British government.

unknown 29:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

It's smart.

SPEAKER_04 29:44

It is, and and I think my well, he's he's he constantly comes after Churchill. That's that's a key part of this. My favourite one is when he's criticizing, you know, uh Churchill um for his part in the Allied invasion of Norway, saying, Well, actually, uh, you know, the the British are the bad guys here. Look what they just look what they just did. They they invaded Norway.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Um neutral Norway.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

Yeah, and and and so he's he's then drawing on that discontent and maybe some distrust of leaders um that that was potentially developing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Yeah, yeah. And the other thing that he's able to to do through that attack line is he he kind of highlights the extent to which, and again, this is that important kernel of truth, the British government was lying to its people during the war. Uh, you have the Ministry of Information set up to control basically domestic propaganda uh and and the BBC. There's a lot that's being withheld from the British people, and that which is being reported, particularly by the BBC, it's very dry, it's very boring, it's very by the numbers stuff. And this is why Joyce is appealing, because he's presenting himself not only as if he's speaking truth to power, you know. I am I am telling you the secrets your own government won't reveal, but he's doing it in an entertaining way. Like there's there's a lot of mockery and humor in Germany calling. He criticizes Neville Chamberlain for his timidness, valid criticism. Calls Churchill out for his drunkenness, valid criticism, tells bawdy tales of RAF pilots consorting with prostitutes, probably also valid. Like, like, yeah, you know, he he there's a there's a there's a titillation factor to what he's doing. He makes his news interesting, you know, it's it's clickbait, it's clickbait.

SPEAKER_04 31:36

He does, he does, and and the thing is that there's a couple of considerations. The fact that you know, a lot of things, um, like in terms of like news publications, a lot of things couldn't be publicized because of security concerns at the time, right? So people felt that they weren't getting the whole picture, but often with a good reason. Um, but if we look at things like the mass observation surveys at the time, you know, people were actively criticizing British propaganda. They were saying, well, you know, we have these we have these posters shoved in our faces at train stations and in restaurants, and you know, it just has a really um ambiguous message that doesn't really translate into anything. Um, just this is what you've got to do.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Infamously, the you know, keep calm and carry on that has has since made Christ knows how many millions of pounds as a thing, that would never become real because they looked at it and said, This is rubbish. Like no one's gonna buy this. Like the British people were not stupid. This this idea that somehow and it and it's quite rich as well for people who think this today to look around at how many people get drawn into propaganda today, which is is no not that much more sophisticated than propaganda back in the 40s. But this idea that people back then were just these, you know, bovine fools who who went along with whatever their government said is like nonsense. Again, yeah, the mass observation surveys, which were this surveillance that was done by the British government on people, sort of you know, chatter in pubs, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 33:02

They reveal people wrote diaries and people wrote diaries, yeah. But it was, I mean, there were issues with that. It was primarily like people of a certain social status.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Oh, yeah, they were really valuable and um it's not a it's not a faultless source by any stretch, but it does give us some insight into the fact that a lot of people knew they were being lied to, they knew this was bullshit. Some people accepted that it was a necessary expedient of wartime, but others would look at that and go, Well, what is what is our government not telling us and why? And it's those people that Joyce is targeting, and he does this quite successfully. He's got it's estimated he had about six million regular listeners, yeah, 18 million casual. And just to contextualize that, the population of Britain at this time is about 40 some million. That's a lot of people. That's a lot of people listening to this guy. So he's he's got big listenership, he's got a great gig with the Nazi regime that he that he loves, you know, the winning side as he sees it. Again, there's that thing where he's he's got all the success, but what's it what's he doing with his with his his his cash? And how is how's day-to-day life for the Joyces in in Nazi Germany?

SPEAKER_04 34:13

Well, with a lot of spare cash comes a lot of temptation. Um, so you see where this is gonna go. Um, so they they are part of these, you know, these elite circles of friends, you know, and and and buying luxury goods, they can have anything that they want. Anything is available to them. So they are spending, they are going to parties, they are living the high life. Um, with this, they drink a heck of a lot. They're already pretty big drinkers, they're already huge drinkers, and now it's you know, schnaps on tap, basically. Literally. So there are, you know, there are lots of incidents where they go to parties and then you know, everyone is unconscious on the floor. It's it's absolute chaos, right? And anything goes. So they they spend all the time when they are not working essentially socializing. But um, and this this was this was just really, really common. And but then this then sort of it becomes a problem as as things go south and the drinking becomes not this is fun, the drinking becomes this is a compulsion. So so we see we see that that start to happen. Of course, there's there's there's lots of drugs um involved. Um just yeah, it's not a healthy lifestyle, let's put it that way.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Fun for the first couple of weeks, but then it but then it becomes this is not sustainable, and yet they're doing it for a good couple of years.

SPEAKER_04 35:38

Yeah, basically, yeah. Um, and and so their relationship suffers. Um, he is abusive to Margaret, they both have multiple affairs. I I think I think they they separate a few times, she goes off with another guy a few.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

And anyway, it it's kind of this mutual the parting of Lord and Lady House.

SPEAKER_04 35:59

Yes, yeah, but very unceremonious. And I and I think as as his popularity eventually declines, they end up then having to downsize where they live as well, and and it becomes more miserable. So they really nosedive at a certain point. Um, I think we should give an honourable mention to the fact he does he writes his book, he writes a book as well while he's there called Twilight Over England. Um and and really it's just like this, as you might imagine, this mad rambling where it's it's not a good read.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

No, it's not a good read.

SPEAKER_04 36:32

No, and and you know, all of these kind of like all of these sort of fascist documents.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

It's like he read Mein Kampf and went, you know what? I'm just I'm just gonna fart out my own version of this. Yeah, um a personalised one because it's it's it's as badly written as Mein Kampf. It's not it's not as long and and rambly, I'll give it that. But but it is very it's very self-indulgent. It's basically uh why why I became a Nazi and why that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_04 37:02

Essentially, and I'm saying it it it's very very difficult to read. Um so I wouldn't recommend it.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

No, no.

SPEAKER_04 37:10

I tried.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Um it is out there if anyone wants to, but seriously, I don't if you know enough about these kind of people, you already know what's in there. There's no need to read the down.

SPEAKER_04 37:20

Precisely that, precisely that. So um I've already mentioned, you know, he's he he he rapidly enters a period of decline in his career. And actually, he's he's only really super successful and popular for a limited time in in sort of sort of the first eight, nine, ten months of the war.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Um when when things are going well for Germany.

SPEAKER_04 37:44

Things, yes, things are going well for Germany. Um, but when when they're not, his career nosedives, and and he's he still continues working, you know, into 1942, 1943, 1944. But the the tide has turned against Germany by this point. Um this is this is when you know his professional life, he's he's not as popular, and his private life decline very rapidly. He's drinking every day.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

His fortunes are are tied to they're tied to Germany's fortunes at this time. Like and this again, this is what happens when you are when you become the propagandist. You you your job is to is to narrate the the thing you're propagandizing. And the fact is, during the Blitz, it was easy. It was easy for him to just turn up and go, yeah, well, we're clearly gonna bomb you into submission and you know come seek a peace with us and we'll we'll link arms together, British Empire, Third Reich, and it'll all be apples. But then you get to the middle of the war, the Operation Barbarossa has failed, uh, the the invasion of the Soviet Union. That's that's dragged out into a long war that Germany is not gonna win. Uh you know, anyone who kind of understands about basic military logistics is looking at this and going, there's no way we're actually we we had our one shot and we blew it. America has entered the war. They've landed troops in North Africa at the end of 1942, uh, further troop landings, uh Operation Husky, the landings in Sicily late in later 1943. Britain isn't bombed being bombed to the same extent it was in 1940. Now now the Reich is being bombed.

SPEAKER_04 39:18

Um we we aren't we aren't losing as as much merchant shipping in, you know, the battle of the Atlantic is is the tide has turned, um, as we say.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

So so he hasn't got the material. He hasn't got the material to go, well, obviously this is all going fine, and Hitler's Hitler's right about everything, and and this is gonna this is gonna turn in our favour. And that and that's that's difficult. That's difficult considering that it's been a good couple of years now that he's been in this mindset of saying, well, obviously we're gonna win, and that's why I'm here, because this is gonna work out. And there's got to be a correlation there between uh the him starting to tweak to that and the fact that he's he's hitting the bottle, he's hitting Margaret, he's he's you know, he's lashing out, he's becoming more volatile.

SPEAKER_04 40:05

And what what I can't decide really is how much he is still believing in his own nonsense, you know, how much he is still devoted to the cause. Um, because you know, he's he's he's given topics that he has to write his speeches on, but he increasingly is seen he he is has drunk a whole bottle of something and they have to kind of wake him up and then he writes his speech. Giving him some methamphetamine and he can barely get through it, you know, and and the quality of his his speech is tails off, and he can barely get through it. And is it because he's just giving up the cause now?

SPEAKER_00 40:45

Well, where else has he got to go? I mean, this was the guy who was once a rival to Oswald Mosley in terms of convincing, you know, Britain's that that Nazism was the future, this charismatic coming man of fascism, and now he's I think it's because he's put all of his eggs in the Nazi basket, and those eggs are being smashed by 1943. So I I think it's more that he's just what alternative does he have? He's got it, he's still getting paid, yeah. He's still he's still got money for schnaps, and that's all that matters. There's a there's a good quote here actually from um a fellow Nazi collaborator, a fellow by the name of Eric Pleasant. Yeah, and and he describes him in really wretched terms. He says this is, I think, in 1943, early 44. Uh, he describes Joyce as an inoffensive little creature whose whose hand left a cold patch on his own for several minutes. He looked like the owner of a dirty bookshop continually washing his hands with invisible soap and water, putting up a futile struggle to make an impression of importance with the person to whom he was talking. He was a corpse, a walking, talking corpse.

SPEAKER_04 41:53

I absolutely love that. It's such a vivid description and so perfectly encaptured. You can just imagine that he's like this frail, dirty, you know, and he's got this kind of nervous, anxious wringing of his hands. Yeah. Um, and and and Eric Pleasance would have been at some of these, you know, these parties, and he'd have seen him at his best, this kind of stylish, really affluent guy. Um, but now he's then he goes to work.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Then he goes to work and the party and the party's still going. The the party ended at at at 2 a.m. But he's at work at 8 a.m. He thinks the party's still going. So he crashes into the into the studio with the bottle in hand, and yeah, Hafid and kebab. Not that they had kebabs back then, but you get the image. Like, like it's it's it's that sort of thing where he's just he's just he's just a fucking train wreck.

SPEAKER_04 42:48

He's yeah, he's I i it's probably mainly the the drink and drugs, but I think it's the the anxiety, the nerves, the just the sense of dread, and and it's physically just destroyed him by this point.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Knowing that that there is no way out at this point. And uh he's not alone in feeling this. When he left Britain in 1939, William Joyce he he bet the house on Hitler being the future of Europe. He's burnt all his bridges with Britain. And as regards to Hitler, and let's never forget this: Hitler was a failure of a human being. He was an average soldier, he was a shit artist, he was incapable of being a functional member of society. Placed in a different political context, he would have been a failed politician. Excellent charismatic speaker, that took him a long way, had some military success at the start of the war, but you know, Operation Barbarossa, that don't work. Pearl Harbor, he makes the catastrophic decision to declare war on the United States after that. He's well and truly screwed up. You know, we're taught to fear Hitler and be in awe of his ruthlessness and his success. But I just look at this guy and I think he's a living, breathing fuck up. Like, this is a guy who, if not for the gift of Gab, which was God given, It's not like he'd learned it, would have spent his life being perpetually unemployed, eating Doritos on the couch, blaming everyone but himself for the fact he's a nobody. And that's that's the horse to which Joyce has hitched his wagon. You know, a guy who promised a thousand-year Reich and delivered 12 years of a Germany that spent six years fighting a war it wasn't gonna win. And and I think that reality comes home to Joyce at this point in like 43, 44. He realizes I've bet on the wrong horse.

SPEAKER_04 44:30

I I think there's there's a really sort of beautiful parallel there as well. That the belief that it or the portrayal that Hitler was infallible, that he was godlike and could live forever, and he was physic physically, you know. Um, but actually he was not, he was being filled with all kinds of uh potions and shots every day. Just to keep him going, just to keep just to keep the guy moving and breathing, and and we've got then that interesting parallel where you know Joyce has turned into this absolute physical wreck, he's dependent on drink just to be able to leave the the house. Um yeah, there's it's good.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

I like it. There's a there's this I'm a fan of this, I'm a fan of this decline in William Joyce.

SPEAKER_04 45:16

And and it should have happened.

SPEAKER_00 45:17

It should have happened, and I'm glad it did. Yeah. Um, anyway, so so to the point about his his declining fortunes being being aligned with Hitler, it's it's it's wonderful that the 30th of April, 1945, the same day that Big Daddy Hitler goes and blows his head off in the Fuhrerbunker, that's the same day of Joyce's final broadcast. Which shocker turns up for it, absolutely handcarts, claiming, and and the recording of this actually came out uh I forget when, but it it was it was uncovered later. This recording of his where it's hilarious to listen to because he's he's you know claiming the right live on the he's he's doing it in a voice that sounds like Churchill on the fifth day of a six-day bender in the midst of having a stroke.

SPEAKER_04 46:05

Like he and there's clanking bottles in the middle of the street. There's clanking bottles, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

His blood has been replaced with schnapps. Like this he he is he is absolutely gone. It's hilarious.

SPEAKER_04 46:18

It is.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Joyce has nothing left. Like, like Hitler's dead. He finishes the broadcast, he flees Berlin like so many others in the wake of the Fuhrer's suicide, and he heads north to Flunchberg um to uh link up with the the other, well, the the heads of the Nazi regime. Now, Flunchberg is where the the there's a this you know tragicomic attempt to to establish a new Reich government in the wake of Hitler's demise. His anointed successor, uh Gross Admiral Karl Dunitz, he becomes the new Führer, or at least in his own head. And you've got other shithels up there like Albert Speer. Um and Speer actually leaves a really good account in his memoirs of just how sad this is. I think I think he paints this image of, you know, the our new our new um parliamentary built, our new Reich Chancery was an old schoolhouse, and there we were, these grown men sitting at at like children's school tables with the little fold-out, you know, tables on top and all this stuff, uh, pretending like we're still in charge of something. And and that seems pretty pretty bang on because because basically that they're literally they've got no territory left to govern. It's like a few pockets of territory that haven't been overrun by the Red Army or the British or the Americans. And inevitably, Joyce is captured on the 28th of May outside Flinchburg. His capture story is fun, it's good fun. He's out collecting firewood when he runs across two British soldiers, and they note this scar, which is very distinctive, and they start chatting to him. They're like, who's this fellow with the with the with the scar? And this is what does for Joyce because after all this time, he's still that thoroughly unlikable, know-it-all schoolboy who cannot keep his gob shut. And so he starts talking to these guys about how great the firewood he's picked is. You know, this this wood burns better than any other wood here, and that's because I understand wood, because I know everything. And the more this moron talks, the more he talks and talks, talks his nonsense. These soldiers go, hang on a minute, I know that voice. I've heard that voice before. He's giving it with every word, he's giving himself away. And so eventually they go, hang on a minute, we think he's that guy from the radio. And so it's both it's both William Joyce's irritating personality and the sound of the character he's created, Lord Hohor, that proves his undoing. And so they point blank ask him, they say, Are you that Lord Hohor character? Because you damn sure sound like him. And at this point, he reaches into his pocket for a fake German ID. They think he's going for a gun, and so they shoot him in the ass, which is perfect. Like through both cheeks, I believe. Like the bullet passes through both cheeks. And he gets one in the shoulder, too. Which is great.

SPEAKER_04 49:04

I I love the idea. I I don't know if if if Margaret was there, but I love the idea that she's potentially going, just stop, just stop it. Just like just stop it.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

Someone had clearly he needed someone to rein him in. Stop talking. You're a radio person. That thing that you're known for is your goddamn voice. Stop talking.

SPEAKER_04 49:24

It's like, oh no, okay, now they've shot him. Okay, fine.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

That's that.

SPEAKER_04 49:27

I told him.

SPEAKER_00 49:28

I told him you get shot, serves you right. He's eventually taken into custody. He's tried at the Old Bailey in London in September 1945 on charges of high treason. Now, in practical terms, there's no defense, he is a traitor, but there's a technicality at play here. Joyce is born in America. He's also got German citizenship, which he acquired in 1942. So, how can he be a traitor to Britain? He's not a British citizen. What's what you know, no, no, no. Yeah. They do get around this though, because he had a British passport that he used to travel to Germany in 1939 when him and Margaret fled. And on that basis, he was a British subject. So that's the the argument.

SPEAKER_04 50:09

And in fact, I think I think I think he they renewed he renewed his passport just before he left. So if he hadn't have done that.

SPEAKER_00 50:17

See. I don't know. I think they would have got him anyway. I I have a feeling there was no way he was walking out of the old bailey without a noose round his neck. Um, and and the irony of this is wonderful, actually, because what they really get him on is this. This is this is irony that's so delicious. You can eat it with a spoon. When he joined the British Army back in 1921, he pledged allegiance to the crown. Which meant that broadcasting propaganda about how the crown is going to be shattered and replaced by the swastika, that's treason. That's treason. That's that's the he's betraying his oath to king and country, which was so important to him at the time. I love that this is the this this pretense to being a British patriot turns out to be the pen that signs his death warrant. The noose is put around William Joyce's neck on the 3rd of January 1946 at Wandsworth Prison. He is the last person in Britain hanged for high treason. In a final letter to a friend, he offered no regrets for what he had done. He blamed the Jews, obviously. He proclaimed his love for Britain despite betraying it. Uh he's he's hanged until dead. His body is buried in an unmarked grave on the prison grounds, but his remains were dug up in the 1970s at the request from his daughter, Heather. Uh, she requested that he be reburied in Galway, Ireland, which he was, and that is where he is to this day. Margaret, um she does not get executed, Lady Hohor. She escapes.

SPEAKER_04 51:42

Yeah, she she doesn't stand trial for treason like her husband. Um, which actually comes as a surprise because she was legitimately a British citizen um to begin with.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

And a fascist and broadcast propaganda.

SPEAKER_04 51:57

And and yeah, so she's just as culpable for all of these things. But um there there are all kinds of theories as to why this doesn't happen. As in, you know, well, she's a woman, we can't possibly inflict this punishment on her, or she suffered enough, or potentially this wasn't her choice. She was forced to do all this by the husband. There's all I also read a theory that, you know, uh it was to protect her. There was some kind of collusion with MI5. I don't know. Um, but anyway, uh so she she doesn't stand trial. Um she she was detained, she uh was sent back to Britain to see her husband before he's executed, but then she's sent back to Germany. Her story, the end of her story is really miserable, to be fair. She she did survive, but she lives in London for many years. Um, and then she she she is a raging alcoholic until the end of her life. So she dies in 1972 from uh complications from her lifelong alcoholism.

SPEAKER_00 53:01

Yeah, just kind of shuffles away, really, pretty, pretty inglorious end.

SPEAKER_04 53:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

This will come as a surprise to anyone who's been listening to these two episodes, but I have nothing but bottomless contempt for William Joyce. Uh he was a liar, he was a hypocrite, he was a nasty little bastard like his idol Hitler. And he was, to my mind, irrespective of any technicalities, he was a traitor to the country he claimed to love and cherish. And as such, he was hanged for it. Um, and although he's lauded by cosplay Nazis today as a hero, outside of that far-right fringe, he is, I think, regarded quite rightly as a cautionary tale. He's a cautionary tale of what happens when you bet the house on something as odious as fascism, something as grifty as fascism, you end up paying the ultimate price for it. Uh such is the fate of traitors. Couldn't have happened to a nicer person, in my opinion. Really couldn't have. Yeah. Not a fan. Not a fan. Are you a fan, Jane? Are you a fan? Do you come away from these two episodes going, you know what? Because sometimes on History's Devils, we do come away with a more nuanced appraisal of the person. We come away and we go, you know what? Maybe that that person wasn't so bad. Maybe there's more to it than this. Here I'm not getting that vibe.

SPEAKER_04 54:17

In in this case, absolutely not. I think just as a person, he was absolutely despicable and infuriating, just just his character. Um, and then yeah, his what he did, his career, absolutely no sympathy. I don't I don't think there's any nuance to be had.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

No, there's not. There's really not. He is he is exactly what he looks like, which is uh you know a Hitler-loving gobsite who deserved everything he got.

SPEAKER_04 54:46

He is he is a true devil from history.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

Completely. And on that note, I'm glad we've reached a consensus. Uh that is that is the the story of William Joyce, otherwise known as Lord Ho-Haw. Thank you all for listening to this episode of History's Devils, or these episodes of History's Devils. Please like, subscribe, leave a comment, um, let us know you're out there. Uh give us any more suggestions. I should note that this this uh topic was actually suggested by someone who I think would have listened to perhaps the the fascists' episode and said, why not do one on ho-hor? So thanks for that feedback. This we've we've delivered on that promise. I did say he was he was on the list, but it it's nice to get these suggestions from folks. So give us suggestions, continue to listen to History's Devils, and we'll see you next time.