William Joyce Part 1: How a British Patriot Became a Nazi Traitor

This double episode explores the life of William Joyce, better known as Lord Haw-Haw, the infamous Nazi propagandist who went from self-described British patriot to one of the most notorious collaborators of the Third Reich during World War II.

In this first part of the story, James - with the help of Jayne Friend - examines William Joyce's early life, political radicalization, and rise within Britain's fascist movement. From his upbringing in Ireland during the Irish War of Independence to his involvement with the British Fascisti and the British Union of Fascists, the episode traces how Joyce's intense nationalism, anti-communism, and growing admiration for Adolf Hitler pushed him into aligning himself with the Third Reich. The discussion also explores the political climate of interwar Britain, the decline of British fascism, and the events that set Joyce on the path toward becoming Lord Haw-Haw.

What's covered in this episode

• William Joyce's childhood in Galway, Ireland, his unionist family background, and how the Irish War of Independence shaped his political beliefs.
• Joyce's support for the British Empire, his association with the Black and Tans, and his hostility toward Irish republicanism and Sinn Féin.
• The myths and realities surrounding Joyce's early years, including stories about scouting, military service, and his reputation among classmates and British forces.
• His move to England after the partition of Ireland and his unsuccessful attempt to build a career in the British Army.
• Joyce's studies at Birkbeck College in London, his work teaching colonial students, and his failed ambitions in government service and the Foreign Office.
• How Joyce developed into a gifted public speaker and political agitator during the 1920s.
• The rise of the British Fascisti, the role of Maxwell Knight's K Squad, and violent confrontations between fascists and communists in London.
• The 1924 Battersea political rally where Joyce received the facial scar that became one of his defining features.
• The growth of anti-Semitism within sections of the British far right and the influence of figures such as Arnold Leese and Henry Hamilton Beamish.
• Joyce's rise within Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists (BUF), including his roles as deputy leader and head of propaganda.
• The rivalry between William Joyce and Oswald Mosley and why some fascists viewed Joyce as the movement's most powerful speaker.
• Joyce's personal life, including his marriages to Hazel Barr and Margaret Cairns White, and how his political career affected his relationships.
• The significance of the Battle of Cable Street in 1936 and its impact on the fortunes of the British Union of Fascists.
• How the actions of Benito Mussolini in Abyssinia (Ethiopia) and Adolf Hitler in the Rhineland damaged the public image of fascism in Britain.
• Why Joyce broke with Mosley, embraced National Socialism more openly, founded the National Socialist League, and increasingly aligned himself with Nazi Germany.
• The ideological contradictions behind Joyce's claim to patriotism and the reasons he came to see service to the Third Reich as compatible with loyalty to Britain.

Mentioned in this episode

William Joyce, Lord Haw-Haw, Adolf Hitler, Third Reich, Second World War, World War II, History's Devils, Jayne, Galway, Ireland, British Empire, Act of Union 1801, Irish War of Independence, Sinn Féin, Dáil Éireann, Irish republicanism, Irish Free State, Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, Royal Irish Constabulary, British Army, Black and Tans, IRA, Worcestershire, Birkbeck College, Foreign Office, British Fascisti, Rotha Lintorn-Orman, Maxwell Knight, K Squad, Communist Party of Great Britain, Battersea, anti-Semitism, Arnold Leese, Henry Hamilton Beamish, The Britons, National Socialism, Oswald Mosley, British Union of Fascists, BUF, Olympia Rally, Battle of Cable Street, East London, Mussolini, Abyssinia, Ethiopia, mustard gas, Rhineland, Treaty of Versailles, National Socialist League, fascism, British fascism, propaganda, political extremism, nationalism, unionism, anti-communism, imperialism, British far right, radicalization, patriotism, collaboration, Nazi Germany.

Chapters

00:00 Chapter 1 — Who Was William Joyce? The Story of Lord Haw-Haw Begins

04:12 Chapter 2 — William Joyce's Childhood in Ireland and Unionist Upbringing

09:30 Chapter 3 — The Irish War of Independence and Joyce's Support for the Black and Tans

17:17 Chapter 4 — Leaving Ireland: Military Failure and a New Life in England

18:34 Chapter 5 — Birkbeck College, Teaching, and Political Ambition

23:23 Chapter 6 — William Joyce Discovers Fascism

26:06 Chapter 7 — The Scar, Anti-Semitism, and Radicalization

30:31 Chapter 8 — Oswald Mosley, the British Union of Fascists, and the Rise of a Fascist Star

34:24 Chapter 9 — Marriage, Affairs, and Life Behind the Fascist Image

39:08 

Chapter 10 — The Battle of Cable Street, the Decline of British Fascism, and Joyce's Break with Britain

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Thanks to SOULFULJAMTRACKS for their tune "Dark Halloween"

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History's Devils is a history podcast exploring the lives of murderers, charlatans, psychopaths, dictators, war criminals, tyrants, demagogues, revolutionaries, cult leaders, conquerors, fraudsters, and other controversial figures.

History's Devils is hosted by James Crossland, professor of international history and author of:

Rogue Agent: From Secret Plots to Psychological Warfare, the Untold Story of Robert Bruce Lockhart

The Rise of Devils: Fear and the Origins of Modern Terrorism...

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What happens when someone who thinks themselves a loyal patriot turns out to be the worst kind of traitor? The story we're telling today is the answer to that question. It's the story of William Joyce, better known to history as Lord Hohor, a devoted Hitler fanboy who worked for the Third Reich during the Second World War, broadcasting pro-Nazi propaganda into the ears of the British people. A loathsome creature who reminds me of certain other drifting hypocrites who today are working against Britain's interest despite claiming to love their country. William Joyce is this week's History's Devil. Hello folks, and welcome to History's Devils, a podcast journey through the lives of murderers, charlatans, psychopaths, and shithels. We're talking Lord Ho-Haw, aka William Joyce, infamous Nazi propagandist, and joining me to pick this guy apart and understand the impetus for his treachery. I have with me, fresh offenduring the sordid tale of Donald Trump and Vince McMahon. Which, if anyone's wondering what the hell I'm talking about, check those episodes out in the History's Devil's Back catalog. Jane friend. Jane, how are you?

SPEAKER_02 1:34

I'm very well, thank you. And thank you for having me back on the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Great. So we're we're we're doing a pivot here from again your last appearance talking about a wrestling promoter and a president. We are instead talking about a guy who who goes on an odyssey of fascist discovery. Let's call it that.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Which yeah, I'm I'm romanticizing our subject from the start. But he it is an odyssey. He starts as, you know, as we'll get to, he starts as a pretty sort of base level kind of uh conservative fellow and then and then gets increasingly radicalized to the point where he ends up serving Hitler during the Second World War. So let's get into who this guy was. William Joyce was born in 1906, not in Britain, but in Brooklyn, New York. He was raised in Galway, Ireland. His father, Michael, was a Catholic. His mother, Gertrude, was a Protestant. Somewhat unusual union in these times. More important than the religion, however, was the politics. Politically, young William was raised to be a unionist, that is to say, an Irish person who believes very much in the validity and sanctity of the act of union that brought Ireland under British yoke back in 1801. So this meant that Joyce was implicitly a believer in the dominance of Britain and its empire. He saw the empire as not only a force for good in the world, but a necessary force of order that could corral the likes of the shambolic Irish into line. That's his view of the Irish. Basically, he he he hates the Irish, but he lives amongst them, right? And this perception of Britain is an important one because for anyone listening who knows a little bit about Adolf Hitler, this is precisely how he thought of the British Empire. He thought of it as this racially superior worlds policeman that could, in theory, work alongside something like the Third Reich to keep a boot heel on the throat of the planet's lesser peoples. And William Joyce from the younger stage sees the Irish as lesser peoples. And I'll just get this plug out of the way. For anyone who's interested in that union between the German or the Nazi way of thinking about the British Empire and people in Britain who thought similarly that they could have a partnership with the Third Reich and kind of rule the world. See episodes four and five of History's Devils. Um check out those episodes about the British Peace Party and all that kind of stuff. Um and while you're there, like, subscribe, comment, and listen to all the other episodes in the back catalogue. Leave reviews and star ratings. Give us five star reviews.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Only five stars allowed.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Only five stars allowed. We are doing, we are doing our goddamn best. But um, yeah. Cheap plug over. Had to get that in. Let's get back to the business of William Joyce. So unsurprisingly, given his political views, young Willie Wills is not a fan of Irish republicanism. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that his hatred of republicanism and loyalty to Britain become a core aspect of his personality and identity as a youth. Okay, these are heavy political questions that are important to him from a very young age. This is not a kid who is just going to be happy kicking a football around with his mates, stealing coal, setting fire to things, whatever it is that kids in the early 20th century did for fun. You know, getting cholera.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

Licking lead.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Licking lead, yeah, no, none of that stuff. None of the fun, wholesome pastimes of your.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

He hero-worshipped a lot of military figures like Nelson, etc. So he actually claims as a as a young lad to have joined a branch of the scouts in Galway. Now, the scouts had uh the scouting movement had arrived in in Ireland at this time, um, but we actually don't have any evidence to say there was a scouting uh group, a group, a branch of the scouts um in Galway at the time.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

What a strange thing to lie about.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

A lot of things to lie about, like yeah, you you would I mean you would join an organization, right? And and you you would do it for real. Why would you lie about being in the scouts? But he gained a uniform somehow and the badges and the insignia, and he sort of learned some of the made his own yeah, it's such as his enthusiasm. Yeah, and and it's sort of this kid playing dress up, uh essentially. Um and and and I think that you know the the the there was a later on in the 20s, there was a branch of the of the scouts there, but it just seems really odd. And it it does highlight actually, this is a good example of how he starts to sort of fantasize and this tendency to lie um about his belonging, I think. Um but I it it could I think there's a there's a couple of explanations for why he's potentially doing this, and it could be that he's just drawn to this idea of belonging to an organization and he and he likes putting on the uniform and he likes strutting around and feeling important. That is highly possible. Um but I think another explanation could could be that we're you know we we are we are in the era of we are inculcating young people into the ideals of uh the British Empire. So uh the Scouting Movement was notoriously uh uh a sort of an imperialist organization to sort of militarize young young boys um and educate them. Um and in fact, uh its founder, Robert Baden-Powell, was um was in the military, and that was the whole purpose of the Scouting Movement. So um I I I think it the idea of it is imparting some of these core values that really spoke to Joyce, this idea of being disciplined and being loyal to your country, and he clearly loves that, and that is a thread we see through most of his life.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, dressing up, arresting imperial decline by being part of this great movement. Uh it it all makes sense, and it definitely makes sense when we know where he's going to end up by 1919, when he gets his chance to play soldier, and in the process indulge in this love of Britain and its empire. And that's because in January 1919, the Irish War of Independence breaks out. Now, just to explain the causes of that briefly, you have the Irish UK elections. So this is elections for Irish seats that are happening within Ireland's part of the UK, so it's a UK election. Sinn Fein, the Republican Party, gets a massive swather of the vote. It's about 70%, I think, in uh this 1918 election. But its members refuse to take seats in Westminster to represent Ireland. Instead, they proclaim that they now have a mandate to form their own parliament, an Irish parliament, uh the Doyle Eren, and the this act of defiance of British rule sparks a war between Irish Republicans and the British in Ireland to cement this new political order that Sinn Fein has proclaimed. Now, Joyce is uh 13, 14 years old at this time, and he throws himself into this. He he loves it. He pledges to serve British interests against Irish Republican threats. There's some confusionslash lies about what he actually did during the war. Again, he's telling tall tales throughout. We know that he I don't know if he just spruced up the scout uniform or whatever, but he's wearing a hell of a lot of khaki at this time. And and this is at school, right? So he's he's he's at school wearing khaki, and this is another another trend with him. He's gonna be the know-it-all who's explaining the politics of this to his his thicko classmates. That's how he sees it. So he's gonna go up to them and go, oh, this is why this is happening, and da-da-da, and all this. And unsurprisingly, he gets beaten up a lot for this. Like he he gets they really don't like this guy coming up to them, particularly on one occasion. He uh again, the story is that he he corners a fellow pupil who's wearing an Irish tricolor flag, so nationalist flag over his shoulders. Joyce, who never knows when to keep his trap shut, never knows when to just let sleeping dogs lie, goes up to the kid, sort of sticks a sticks a finger in his chest, and is like, you take that off now, you know, you traitor, etc. The boy goes tells him to jump in a ditch. Joyce then pulls out a pistol that he has stolen from a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary, and he threatens to shoot the kid. Now, I'm not sure if this is a true story. Again, it's it's one of these that gets lost in the sort of mythos of Joyce, but it's on brand for him. And I could believe it's true because he, despite being a youth, despite being a teenager, he does catch the eye of the British head of the Galway Army garrison, and he actually decides, you know, this this kid's clearly on our side against the Irish, let's employ him as a runner. So Joyce ends up working first as a runner for the army, but then he gets a real chance to play soldier when he attaches himself like a parasitical leech to the local unit of the black and tans. So to explain these people, for those who are not aware, the black and tans are these brutalized, most likely traumatized First World War veterans who are whipped out of the trenches, and then a few months later they are sent to Ireland and told, look, help out the Royal Irish Constavalry, help out the British Army there and suppress Irish descent. These guys they're called the black and tans because the hastiness of their deployment means that they're wearing this stitched-together uniform. It's part police uniform, part khaki. They are basically given free reign to do whatever the hell they want. They engage in in arbitrary executions, plunder, uh, setting fire to stuff, raping women. They do all kinds of horrific stuff that today we would call war crimes. And they they they are they are brutal bastards. And Joyce loves them. He thinks they're spiffing. Wonderful guys, you know, upholding the values of the empire, etc.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

It's it's a red flag, isn't it? It's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

It's a red flag. If your if your child is enthusiastic about the Tans, look out. Look out. That's that's that's um get him to therapy. He does not go to therapy. Instead, like I say, he he sort of becomes their mascot almost. And it's funny, uh, some of the Tans who with whom he was associated would recall later. They would say that he was he was kind of like a pesky little brother, this sort of over-eager little sproglet who's just could sort of nipping at their heels all the time. And worse than that, again, like on the schoolyard where he's trying to explain the politics to everyone, he's acting like he's a trained soldier, he's acting like he's one of them. He's like telling these these hardened veterans of the Somme, you know, make sure you keep your rifles clean, make sure you keep your kit in order, all this, all this sort of stuff. And you can just you we've all met this guy, you know, we've all encountered this guy in various walks of life. This is a recognizable type, and you just want to smack him upside the head.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Like the the the sense of entitlement and superiority is like even just reading about his character from this period, like it's aggravating, it's so infuriating.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Yeah, yeah. You want to leap into the pages and throttle him. Like he's he's and and so you can imagine these guys who again, for for all that they are brutal, they're they're they're soldiers, they kind of know what they're doing, and they've got this irritant hanging around them. And it's ironic that it's the Irish Republican Army, the IRA, whom Joyce obviously detested, they actually give him the validity of being a soldier that the black and tans deny him. Because, as I say, they treat him like a you know the unit mascot. But it's the IRA who actually target him for death, apparently. One story is that they send a sniper out to set up a position on the street where the Joyce family home is, with the idea of picking off the now, what is he, 15, 16, something like that year old when he returns from a day out with the black and tans. Now, again, not sure if this is if this is true, but what is true is that by the time the Irish War of Independence ends in 1921, Joyce was known to the IRA. He was known as a sympathizer with the British, he was hated accordingly, but he could not be killed by the IRA because before the peace is agreed, a ceasefire is enacted. And Joyce is an agent of the crown. So killing him, satisfying as that might be for the IRA in Galway, they're like, well, if we if we kill an agent of the crown, we're we're going to endanger this ceasefire, which is going to endanger the peace that both sides are uh working towards. So he he's protected for a time, but then once that ceasefire ends and the peace is decreed, and Ireland is divided into Irish Free State and what today is the Republic of Ireland and then Northern Ireland, which remains part of the UK, the IRA at that point can do whatever the hell they want with Joyce. They have free reign to target him so long as he remains in the Irish Free State, and that means he needs to get the hell out of Dodge. And for what it's worth, you know, Joyce's father, Michael, he took the prospect of the IRA assassinating his son rather seriously. And so, with the help of the British Army officer who initially recruited William into the Galway garrison, they get him relocated to the relative safety of England, and Joyce gets enrolled in an army unit in Worcestershire. Surprise coming. Little cosplay soldier boy does not last very long in the real army because he uh I I know, I know, I'm shocked too.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Yeah, you could you could see that coming, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Yeah, yeah, could see it coming. And it's the same story. He struts into the barracks like he did with the Tans, overconfident. Hey, lads, I'm a soldier like you. Let's serve Britain, etc. Bragged about all the fighting he did in Ireland, which wasn't real. Older, more mature soldiers saw this pretentious, pretend tough guy with his chest puffed out, dismissed him for the poser he was. And this, in addition to the fact that he's underage, this leads to him being discharged from the British Army in 1922. So not a glorious career in the military. He gets discharged, and then, well, obviously, I mean, this is what happens when you leave the army. You become a teacher.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

It happens to all of us, you know. We fail at life and then you you go and teach.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Um you just flip that switch. So, what's his what's his teaching career? What's he trying to do once the soldier fantasy dies?

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Well, yeah, he he is still keenly aware that he is an intelligent guy, right? So uh he he gives university a try. Um now I think he enroll in a in another institution and and that doesn't work out. I I'm sure I read that he was destined to do medicine and it just didn't work out for whatever reason. Um but anyway, he he enrolls at Birkbeck College in London. So he is studying for a degree in English language and literature. And um while he's there, he joins a couple of university societies, as you do. Um, one of them being um the Students Conservative Society. So he's honing his his you know his oratory and everything at this point. Um, but anyway, he he basically he continues to express extreme, extreme views in his time there. And he finally graduates in 1927 with his degree. Um, and now this one this is when it becomes a little bit more interesting because he gets a job teaching, but he is teaching colonial students to prepare them for their university entrance exams.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

So this could be, I don't know, kids from India, maybe?

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Yeah, possibly.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Or from Africa, kids of colour.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so people from from the you know from the wider British Empire um who want to go to university. So um I'm not I'm not precisely sure what he's teaching. Presumably it is language, it is language skills in some some way. Um and it seems really incongruous with his beliefs, but as a big fan of the ideals of empire, he would have seen this as, you know, he's doing a duty. He is he is seeking to improve uh, you know, the empire in in the broadest sense.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Raise up the lesser colonials, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

He's doing them a favor, and you know, and and and he would have believed in the sense of an imperial hierarchy. And I think he then would have felt this sense that um he's in a position of authority over these people. So he again, it would have helped him feel superior. Um, and it and it's just yeah, it's a just a continuation of his of his earlier, you know, his years as a as a kid when his you know different different uniforms, he's now in another position of authority. And I and I think it it's really clear he he feels that his talents are not recognized, and this is why he pursues this path. Um, he does, he's not a teacher forever. It's important to say he feels the sense of his um possible political career calling him, and he he tries for several jobs after this point. He tries for several jobs in local government, in civil service until he applies for a role at the foreign office, and he's rejected for that role. Now, this is possibly because um a letter of recommendation is sought, um, and I think it was from the principal of his first uh he went to a polytechnic, I think it was sent from from the principal there, and and it basically said he has extreme political views, not what you want if you're gonna work for the foreign office.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

Um, so so it's clear that he's disappointed, and I think this is really the point where he develops this resentment, this bitterness towards the political establishment. Um and obviously, you know, he he feels he's failed. He's failed in several careers. He's still a young guy, but he's failed in several careers already.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

It's quite an achievement to be to to fail so much at such a young age. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, give him give him give him props for trying. Yeah, you can't you can't fault this guy's ambition, but it is that thing of the ability doesn't seem to match the ambition, does it?

SPEAKER_02 22:12

No, he feels a bit kind of listless wandering through these these different pursuits, and and and he's can't really find his his place. But what this does enable him to do is develop still his efforts at public speaking. Um and he develops this really, I suppose, almost jarring offensive presence on stage. You know, you can't fail but to notice him. And and to the point where he later is described as being you know short, muscular, he's hyped up, he throws his head back and shuts his eyes and in tone. So he understands that it's this grandiose performance, and that is what he's developed really well through his early years.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Which is going to be important because he's he's failed as a soldier, he's failed as a teacher, he's too opinionated, he's too obnoxious, he's too overconfident in his own beliefs and abilities, but the guy can talk, and this makes him a perfect recruit for this hot new cool ideology that's sweeping across Europe in the 1920s. Fascism. There it is, there it is, there's the F-word. Yeah. Uh so wow, this is turning into a plug-heavy episode. But I have to say that our first episode of History's Devils, we talked about the origins of British fascism, and this is not about Oswald Mosley. We'll get to him in a bit here, but we talked about what's happening in the 1920s with the British Fascisti, and we need to uh cover back over this ground here. So just a brief, brief clipped version. The British Fascisti are established in 1923 by a lady by the name of Rotha Linton Orman. It's perhaps disingenuous to think of these as a fascist movement as we would think of today, because it's really conservatism on steroids and it's a very broad church. It's everyone from anti-Semites to people who uh fear for the loss of prestige and power in the empire, it's people with concerns about immigration, it's people who uh are anti-German and are now switching to being vehemently anti-communist, it's people who are anti-Irish. It's basically people who have just got a lot of problems uh looking at the world around them and going, you know what, this place is going to the dogs, we need to do something. And uh Joyce gets wrapped up in that. He joins the British Fascisti. He ends up uh being part of a division of the Fascisti called K Unit or K Squad, which is run by a name, a man by the name of Maxwell Knight. Uh the K is from his last name. They are donned in an all-black uniform, so it's a precursor to the black shirts that Oswald Mosley is going to make famous. They tend to spend most of their time beating up communists in Hyde Park. Uh, that's their main vocation. They they break they do some break-ins of the Communist Party of Great Britain headquarters as well, but it's mainly scuffling with communists because the again communism is is I I wouldn't say it's rising as a force in Britain at this time, but you have a communist party and you have you have communists and fascists, and they're they're getting it on in the streets, you know. But the the big event that occurs for Joyce in terms of his career and in terms of how how he evolves into this big fascist figure occurs in October 1924, when he and a bunch of lads from K-Squad go along to a Conservative Party speech that's being delivered in Battersea, and they are there to provide security, basically, for the for the politician who's speaking that night because they know that there's a bunch of communists who are going to turn up and try to shout him down. And such is the volatile politics of this era. You got two squads of bully boys turn up with two opposing political views, thing falls into fisticuffs, there's a big fight, and in the middle of this, Joyce gets razored from lip to ear. This is the era of the razor gangs. This is Peaky Blinders, everyone's got a razor under their cap, it's that thing. And someone whips out a razor, holds him down, and cuts him from his lip right up to his eye, basically. It's a big, deep, gnarly wound. And it's really an important point for Joyce because there's there's two things here. One, he's now got his battle scar, right? The the warrior has his war wound, and it's a doozy of a war wound. Like I say, this this scar where when it heals, it's pure Bond villain. You know, it's it's a it's a badass scar. Can't take that away from him. And this gives credibility and balance to his fantasy of being a soldier. And the second thing is because this is some frackar and there's communists and fascists and fists and chairs and cudgels flying around, he's able to say, Well, it was a bunch of Jews who did it to me. Which is not true. Um isn't there a story about it possibly being an Irish woman?

SPEAKER_02 26:58

Yeah, there's there's all kinds of stories. And and again, this is part of the the mythology. You you you can't separate fact from fiction with a lot of this. But uh yeah, there's there's there's various stories and accounts of like I well, I thought it was just an angry Irish woman that did it.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Um but yeah, which is not beyond the realms because he has pissed off the Irish. That's the thing. This guy's got this guy's got a long list of enemies. So could be Irish, it could be communists, uh, but this he's the only one who's saying, yeah, it was a gang of Jews who who targeted me. And again, it's that ego thing. They targeted me because I am me. And it should be said, though, that that that claim to the to the Jews targeting him is it it's not completely out of left field. Anti-Semitism had been a part of British conservative culture going back to the Victorian era. However, by the 1920s, this stuff is getting more overt, and political figures with unambiguously anti-Semitic platforms are coming to the fore. Uh, one of the fellows we mentioned in that first episode of History's Devils was the World War I veteran/slash uh expert on the camel. Uh I forgot about him. The camel doctor, the camel doctor.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

The camel doctor.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Uh Arnold Lee, who is also one of Britain's uh, you know, predominant anti-Semites. Uh he becomes part of the British fascisti. There's another fella kicking around at this time called Henry Hamilton Beamish, which is, you know, his name kind of tells you the kind of man he's gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

That says it all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

It's perfect. He he forms a group called the Britons in 1919, who are basically uh anti-Semitic, anti-immigration, anti-communist. And Beamish goes on to actually attend Nazi meetings alongside Hitler in 1923. He he f he's unambiguously anti-Semitic. So this stuff is getting more mainstream, and Joyce is part of that increasingly radicalized anti-Semitic wing of the British far right. And as such, he's already on that path towards Nazism as early mid-1920s. He's already on that trajectory, and the fact that he's raised and the fact he's able to blame it on the Jews, that becomes part of that story he's telling himself of where he's gonna go. And that story continues into the 1930s when he ends up meeting and joining the association of a fellow by the name of Oswald Mosley, who is the founder of the British Union of Fascists. The BUF is established in 1932 to really bring together these discordant parts of Britain's far right. The British Fascisti has basically fallen apart at this time. Well, well, it has fallen apart. The the the the founder, Rotha Linton Orman, has gone to drink herself to death in the Canary Islands. Half the membership has left. Arnold Lees, the aforementioned camel doctor, he's formed something called the Imperial Fascist League, which does not have a massive membership, but they're very hardline, anti-Semitic, uh pro-Nazi, basically. And there's various other small fascist groups, and and Mosley corrals all these together and says, Look, I'm in charge of y'all, and and I'm in charge of this thing called the British Union of Fascists. And Joyce, who has this rep because of the hard work he's put in and because he's been razored and everything else, he becomes uh a pretty high up in the BUF. He's a fierce lieutenant of Mosley's, but more than that, he's seen by some people, including Mosley himself perhaps, as a rival to the leadership of the British fascist movement. And that's because uh this goes back to what you were saying before about his this this gift of oratory that he's been developing for years now. Fascism was and still is all about speaking through smoke and mirrors and performance. Okay, it's it's not about explaining detail, policy, structure, it's not about truth and facts. Fascism is about vibes, it's raw, violent emotion, the ability to inspire people to do heinous things by expressing that raw, violent emotion through convincing oratory. Oswald Mosley was damn good at this. William Joyce was better, right? You've got there are people uh at the time talk about how he's this terrifying dynamic force when you put him in front of the mic. He's just this intense, angry, yet also articulate young man. He's got the scar from where he was razed, he's got the reputation of being a loyal defender of Britain, going right back to his time with the black and tans in Ireland. Mosley, in contrast, he's this, you know, polished posh boy, spent most of the 1920s bouncing around different political parties trying to find a way to grift himself into a position of power and influence. And so for the purists in the British Union of fascists, there's an argument to say that William Joyce, he's the real deal, and they should be following him rather than Oswald Mosley, who by comparison seems like a bit of a pretender.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

Yeah. So they I they they clearly had had a rivalry, but it I mean, is it true that they didn't get along and and actually was it was a hatred for each other?

SPEAKER_01 32:06

I think it's that it's that thing of you know, we we don't like each other, but we we kind of sort of need each other. And and I do think that Mosley respected Joyce to an extent. I think he he respected, if not the man, he respected what he could do for the movement and the fact that he was very good at what he did, which was this this oratory, also, you know, helping out with the general organization of the BUF. But that's the thing with these these any kind of populist party, there is only room for one Il Duce, you know, there's only room for one Fuhrer. You you can't have two two front men.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Yeah. And and and and as I said, by by virtue of the fact this is performative, it's it's about big personalities and being emotive. And if you have two of those people in the same space, uh it doesn't it doesn't work. You can't. It there's just a clash, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Yeah, yeah. And there's no I mean there there's times when they do seem to fall out, but they they keep it on the down low, you know. It's not it's not something that's out there, they're they're mindful, they don't want to put that out to the world. So by and large, he's being very successful. His political career is going very well. He's finally found somewhere to belong. It's all going well. But how's his personal life at this time? What's happening behind the curtains of William Joyce's house? What's going on?

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Funny you mention it. You you would you would imagine that a person of his ilk would maybe have somewhat of a dysfunctional personal life. And I think we can say that is true. Um so good. That's what we want to believe. Um, so he he actually he he gets married twice in his lifetime, the second of which we'll come on to uh later, but um in 1927 he marries a lady called Hazel, Hazel Barr. And they lived in what seemed like some version of you know matrimonial bliss, I suppose. But she, of course, is there beside him during his rise in his political career in through fascist politics, and she supports that, um, which I think you kind of have to really. It's just the way it is.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

It wouldn't work if she voted to the Greens.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

No, no, no, the arguments over the dinner table would be catastrophic. So so so, yeah, so she she is supporting him. Um, they actually have two children, two daughters, and uh more recently, one of his um daughters said, you know, he he was a loving father and he was her daddy, and that's all she knew. Um, yes, there was that sort of public political side to him, but um, you know, he was quite devoted at home. Um and they they sort of they they they drift along in um sort of this kind of domestic situation, let's call it. And there's there's evidence that they move around from place to place and he's giving speeches in meeting halls. Um but as you might imagine, it starts to fall apart a little bit. Um there's lots of evidence that he is unfaithful, um, and he starts having affairs.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Because he's a rock star.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

He's a rock star, naturally.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

All the fascist groupies are gonna throw themselves at him.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

You could you can imagine this.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

And and there's all kinds of um sort of rumors and and myths um that you know, that he he takes up a little house on the southeast coast, and um possibly that's you know, that's where he put a mistress. I don't know. But anyway, this is this is probably facilitated by the fact he's going around giving speeches and still still um developing that. But he becomes increasingly unpleasant and difficult. Um, and yeah, their their marriage starts to break down. So by by sort of 1936, um they are separated and they divorce in 1937. And actually, Hazel goes on to marry one of uh Mosley's bodyguards. So it comes back to you, you've got to keep it in the family.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Keep it in the family, it's it's a fascist scene thing.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

Yeah, you gotta you gotta be part of their scene.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

Yeah. Um, and so then it's actually not too long after this that he is moving again in in these in these fascist circles and and a particular set of people, and he meets a lady called Margaret Kairns White. Now, I think the story is they were at a party. Um, he's being his typical rock star, aloof character in the corner.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Canton charisma.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Yes, yeah, yeah. He doesn't even need to try, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Because he steals up and emanates.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

That's it, his magnetic personality. Um, but the but essentially, yeah, the story is he he's he spots her, they're introduced, um, they seem to get along well. Um, you know, Margaret was was also a committed fascist. Um, so again, they share the same belief. So um, I don't know how true this is, but apparently at this party he says, Hey, do you want to get married? Yeah, go on then.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Just like that.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

Just it's it's simple.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

That scar is doing a lot of work.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

It's it's doing a lot of the heavy lifting right now, I tell you.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

Um so so yeah, so then so then they are married, they um almost kind of settle into his fully committed to his political career at this point. Um and meanwhile, elsewhere, elsewhere in Europe, trouble is brewing.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

Trouble is brewing, and with that, there's there's a blowback onto the BUF itself. So at about the time, in fact, that things are starting to stabilize in his personal life, stuff is starting to go haywire with Mosley, um, who actually sacks this star, this rock star from the BUF in 1937. Now, there's a couple of reasons behind this, I think. One is almost certainly jealousy. Uh, there's been a few years, there's been a good couple of years now, they've been in this sort of love-hate relationship. Um, and you could see Mosley perhaps understanding that he has this uh very charismatic rival and that he does have to do something to get rid of him. But I I think the context is what really pushes that that grievance over the edge. And the context is that the BUF is is entering into a period of decline. So in 1934, Joyce is, I can list off his his various jobs with the BUF at this point. He is the West London area administrative officer, which sounds very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

Catchy.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

Catchy. He is the deputy leader, that's punchier, sounds sounds better. And importantly, he is the head of propaganda. The significance of this will become apparent when we look at his later career in Nazi Germany. Um, so he's he's wearing a lot of hats, and he's he's one of the few people it should be mentioned in the BUF who's being paid well for the various jobs he's doing. So he's he's got a there's a price tag attached to this man because he is he is worth it. And the question is, why is he doing so many jobs? And it's because the fascist movement, you know, he he's the best they've got, which is kind of like saying he's the nicest guy in prison. You know, he's he's he's he's the best, he's the best of the shits. And that's because the talent bench of the BUF is really not very deep. It's basically Mosley, Joyce, and a bunch of jabronies, you know, like that they're they're the only game in town. And this makes him more of a threat to Mosley, and it makes him a target for the latter when he has to trim the BUF's budget. And that moment comes at the end of the 1930s because of the aforementioned decline in the BUF's fortunes. And this is happening both domestically and as as a consequence of international events. So domestically, I would say the height of the BUF uh comes in June 1934 when they have this massive rally at the Olympia in West Kensington, this magnificent Victorian domed venue. 15,000 odd people at this rally. Beneath the crowds, though, like it looks great, but beneath the assembly, there's not a lot happening politically because by the mid-1930s, the BUF's membership is about 40,000. It's kind of plateaued. They've got a couple of counselors in local elections, but they've never managed to land an MP in Parliament. And in 1936, moreover, the BUF basically shoots itself in the foot through a stunt that goes on to be called the Battle of Cable Street, which most people will have heard of, but to explain it and to perhaps demythologize it, because there's a lot of nonsense written about the Battle of Cable Street, and uh the truth is is sadly a bit more a bit more uh mundane. So on the 4th of October 1936, you get a group of 3,000 odd fascists led by Mosley who form up to march through East London, which is a predominantly Jewish area of town. It's a deliberate provocation. They are met by tens of thousands of counter-protesters who fight them in the streets. Uh they shall not pass. You know, it's this big moment of defiance where the where the Avengers assemble to fight off the fascist Thanos. And this is not what happened. This is this is a wonderful myth, but it is a myth. What actually happened is the police turn up en masse, like most of the London Constabulary turn up, most of the Met police turn up. They assess the situation, they go, Wow, this is gonna turn into a shitshow if we let the march go on. It's a threat to civil order. So they tell Mosley, disband and sod off. Go go have a little march in West London where no one's gonna give a shit. Go do that, but not here. And there were some clashes between protesters and marches, but realistically, more fighting occurs between the anti-fascists and the police than between the BUF and those who who assemble to oppose them. So, yes, a lot of people turn out, but it's it's less what happens at Cable Street is less a righteous battle and more a police intervention that snuffed out the fight, fighting before it could begin. So again, it's a it's a humbler truth there, but it is the truth. The point is, though, it's a defeat. Okay, Mosley had to call off the march. He had to back down. And fascists, fascists don't back down. You've got to double down, you've got to always be pushing forward. They're depicted as weak in the press. Mussolini, who's a financial backer of the BUF, is very unimpressed by this. He's like, well, why am I backing these losers? They can't even, they can't even march in into a sordid east end of London without the police. I mean, if they were real fascists, they would have started shooting the police. What is this? You know, it's it that's that's his view on it. So Cable Street in a nutshell showed that this kind of openly anti-Semitic, paramilitary-style fascism, you know, street violence-level fascism, it's not going to work in Britain like it has in Europe. It's just not. The context isn't there, the lawlessness isn't there, the breakdown of civil society and political norms isn't there. And this ties to the other problem for the BUF that they had in the late 1930s, and that was the reputation that Moseley's brother fascists in Europe were developing in the eyes of many in Britain. So in October 1935, Mussolini invades Abyssinia or modern-day Ethiopia. He drops 300 tons of mustard gas on the Ethiopians. And this is not just the Ethiopian army, this is villages full of civilians, this is Red Cross personnel. These are neutral people there doing humanitarian work. He does that because he's a fascist, and fascists are all about the fuck you. It's like, yeah, fascists fight wars, you know, sod your international law, sod your niceties. We what we got gas, we're gonna use it. And this does not go down well. Look, this makes Mussolini a a bit of an international pariah. And then you've got, you know, good old Adolf on the 7th of March 1936, having become Chancellor of Germany three years prior. He comes out of his shell, defies the Treaty of Versailles, moves tanks and troops into the Rhineland, the border with West Germany that borders the that was demilitarized after the First World War. Again, deliberate thumb in the eye of the international community and the post-World War order. So by the mid-1930s, Europe's fascist dictators are starting to look like these nasty, warlike, lawless bastards. And British fascism, which as I mentioned before, the the fascisti come out of conservatism and a broad church far right, it's a more genteel form of fascism, if that's the right word, to what Hitler and Mussolini are peddling. It's it's as I say, it's conservatism with with I believe I believe a cons contemporary at the time said it was conservatism with knobs on, right? That's that's what it is.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

And that's not that's not mustard gas. That's not gassing people. So when Mosley tries to do the paramilitary violence gimmick in East London, uh and and fails at it, even more so, he and his party become pretty unpalatable to a lot of people. Not everyone, but but enough people, because Britain, you know, Britain's a conservative country, but it's not radical. And fascism, we we we we mistake fascism for conservatism. Fascism is not a conservative ideology, it's radical, it's a radical, violent ideology, it's a scary ideology if you actually see it implemented.

SPEAKER_02 45:33

And and I hope I'm not kind of generalizing too much. Um, but as a as a Brit, I feel I've got license to say, well, actually, people probably liked the idea of a lot of these things until it became a reality. And then it becomes scary. So and and it and it's it it still surprises a a lot of people to to to look back over this era and find out a lot of people supported fascism in its broadest sense. But as you say, there's a very different, um, it's very different between conservatism and fascism. Um, but as you say, the the taste for this waned significantly very quickly.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

Once they see what it actually is, again, fascism, like like like most populist ideologies, it promises you the earth. And it looks like this, and particularly at this stage, because the second world war hasn't happened yet. It's this shiny new thing that's gonna fix all the ills. But then when you actually see what it amounts to, you know, the the concentration camps have been set up at this point. You know, we've got the the first concentration camps are happening, and then people people know about this. If they're paying attention, they know about this, and they've seen they've seen what's happened in in Abyssinia. Hitler's flouting international law. So, yeah, people are looking at this and going. Uh, a lot of people in Britain are look at this and going, you know what, this this fascism stuff, I don't think this is British. Yeah, Joyce, however, does not get this memo. When he's booted out of the BUF, in fact, he doubles down on being a Hitler devotee.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:01

Um, and he forms this thing called the National Socialist League. He goes so far as to grow a Hitler tash, which really undercuts the scar gimmick he's got going. Like, just stick with that sunshine. Stop. Why, why be it, why be a derivative of someone else? Be it, be yourself.

SPEAKER_02 47:19

You know, but I I think that look was quite popular in that era, but I don't know whether it's just that was fashion or you know, people were genuinely like, I'm gonna copy Hitler.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

I think by the time he's growing, I I think you're right, it was a fashion. You know, Hitler, Hitler doesn't come up with it. He's he's doing what you know all the cool kids are doing. But but I think that that by by the time Joyce is doing it, he's doing it because Hitler's doing it. You know, it's like it's like when everyone got their haircut like David Beckham back back in 2001, whatever it was when he started doing daft things with his hair. All the lads wanted a Dave Beckham haircut, it's the same thing. Um so he and he becomes more openly anti-Semitic, uh, more openly anti-Semitic than Mosley. And it should be noted that that before their break, you know, Mosley is saying to Joyce, can you can you he's off on the anti-Semitic shit. Like, like, you know, he's Oswald Mosley is telling you to to back off on the Jews. That's that's how how again, because Joyce doesn't know when to shut his fucking mouth. He just he can't help himself. So he's he's he's not understanding that this stuff, despite the that anti-Semitism, that inherent anti-Semitism I mentioned before amongst conservatives in Britain, he doesn't understand that this message is not palatable to a general electorate in Britain. And he just he just he doubles down, he aligns himself openly with the Third Reich, his National Socialist League, is basically saying, look, we want National Socialism in Britain. And the question, when you're looking at this, the question I have, at least that comes to my mind is how can someone claim they're they're a patriotic Britain when they're acting this way? This is the late 1930s. War with Germany looks increasingly certain. How does Joyce square that circle of being a Hitler fanboy whilst claiming to defend Britain's best interests? And I think it's the same kind of psychology that's at play with people like uh Stephen Yaxley Lennon, known by his gimmick name of Tommy Robertson, and Nigel Farage, who, lest we forget, takes money from mysterious Thai businessmen. Reasoning that both of these men have, other than enriching themselves, of course, is that, you know, the these foreign interests want a vision of the world that in which Britain is not what it currently is. They want an illiberal Britain, they want a Britain that rejects democracy and a rules-based order. And Fraj and Yaxley Lenin and people like that are going, yeah, well, that that'd be just fine. That's the version of Britain they want. And I think Joyce thinks the same way. Like since the 1920s, he's bet his personal and professional life on the idea that fascism is the ideology of the future and that Britain is going to have to embrace it. Joyce expects his country, the country he loves, to align itself with the Nazi world order that the Fury is saying is imminent. So when the opposite happens, and the BUF can't even organise a march in the East End of London, Joyce is looking at this and going, well, if this is what Britain is, I don't want anything to do with Britain.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

Yeah, he he sees himself as as bailing out before it all collapses. And and he even he he we know he's fantasizing at this time, and he's created this image of of a Britain with a new government, and he's even fantasizing how he's gonna fit into that. Um he's gonna be a cog in the new government that is gonna that is gonna take control of Britain after all, after you know, after all this is said and done.

SPEAKER_01 50:38

Yeah, he's and and this is this is a a really important point to consider given the the decision he's about to make. He he knows the war's coming. He doesn't want to be part of Britain if Britain isn't gonna be fighting alongside Hitler in the struggle against the communists, the Jews, the Soviets, whoever else. Um, and so that's what leads him to fall in. To his mind, to be a patriot means to now be a servant of the Third Reich. So, how does that decision go? How does it end for William Joyce? What adventures will he have in Hitler land? We'll answer these questions in I I think this is gonna have to be a double episode. We'll have to do a part two here. And in a change from how we've done episodes in the past, I'll just say this to the listeners. In the past, we've released double episodes like one week after the other. This time I'm gonna release these at the same time, so you can go straight on to downloading the next episode and conclude the story of Lord Ho-Hor. Jane, thank you for coming along for part one of this ride.

SPEAKER_02 51:40

Thank you very much indeed. Looking forward to the next part.

SPEAKER_01 51:44

It's coming soon, and uh, we'll see you then, dear audience. Uh, tune in for the next instalment of History's Devils.