History's Devils

The Carny & The Showman: How Donald Trump and Vince McMahon Conquered America, Pt.2

• James Crossland • Episode 13

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0:00 | 51:17

In Part Two of this two-part History's Devils episode, James and Jayne finish the story of Donald Trump and Vince McMahon by explaining how the psychology of professional wrestling shaped Trump's two presidencies, and altered the way in which American politics operates. 

Along the way, they discuss the similarities between alternative facts and Kayfabe (wrestling speak for "keeping it fake") and the connections between WWE and the MAGA movement, whilst pondering what a Vince McMahon presidency would look like?

 

Further Reading

 

00:00 - Introduction: Wrestling psychology in politics
02:15 - The concept of kayfabe and its significance
05:37 - Projecting success and inflating figures in rallies
08:11 - Trump’s manipulation of perceptions and alternate realities
13:08 - The use of promos, nickname attacks, and soundbites
17:14 - The rise of soundbite politics and social media dominance
21:26 - How Trump creates and blends realities with "alternative facts"
26:37 - The evolution of Trump's self-image and propaganda portraits
29:38 - The distortion of January 6th and the concept of political kayfabe
32:43 - The role of audience suspension of disbelief in support
36:31 - The spectacle ecosystem: rallies, chaos, and entertainment as political currency
40:37 - Pro wrestling, UFC, and the culture of machismo in Trump’s narrative
45:15 - The influence of WWE, political endorsements, and celebrity ties
50:07 - Hypothetical: Vince McMahon as a president and the wrestling of power
50:42 - Episode wrap-up and future reflections on political kayfabe

Thanks to SOULFULJAMTRACKS for their tune "Dark Halloween"

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History's Devils is a history podcast exploring the lives of murderers, charlatans, psychopaths, dictators, war criminals, tyrants, demagogues, revolutionaries, cult leaders, conquerors, fraudsters, and other controversial figures.

History's Devils is hosted by James Crossland, professor of international history and author of:

Rogue Agent: From Secret Plots to Psychological Warfare, the Untold Story of Robert Bruce Lockhart

The Rise of Devils: Fear and the Origins of Modern Terrorism...

SPEAKER_02

Hello, folks, and welcome to History's Devils. It's a podcast journey through the lives of murderers, charlatans, psychopaths, and shithels. And we are into part two of our exploration of Vincent Kennedy McMahon and Donald John Trump. Jane, friend, is joining me once again. Jane, how do we feel? How do we feel about these two men at this juncture?

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah, well, first of all, I think this is this is turning into an epic. Uh and I I think having exposed a lot of the particularly sleazy stuff in their early careers, yeah. I'm I'm not feeling endeared to them.

SPEAKER_02

No, no, funny that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. But also, I I I think I'm becoming more fascinated as to the connection between the politics and the wrestling. Because it it it I I I think coming back to, you know, we're making a thesis here. Uh I think it's very persuasive and hopefully we'll reveal some some more examples in this episode.

SPEAKER_02

Reveal all, yes, yes. Yes, we are we are building our argument with evidence.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Which apparently is the scholarly. Yeah, yeah. Apparently that's what that's what you're meant to do. Um in this post-truth world, this there's still room for this stuff, apparently. Let's see how we go with this. So we left our hero. No, that's the wrong word. We left Trump. We let let's just call him Trump.

SPEAKER_00

Let's protagonist.

SPEAKER_02

Protagonist, there you go.

SPEAKER_00

There we go.

SPEAKER_02

Antagonist. We left Trump coming down the golden escalator, as I mentioned, at Trump Tower to announce his presidency. And this entrance was not unlike that of a wrestling superstar, choreographed. This wasn't the only pro-wrestling aspect to this performance, though. This is something that doesn't get reflected on enough, I think. That one of the first things Trump said after coming down the escalator, he then gets on this podium that's been set up in the foyer of Trump Tower to announce this grand thing. He says, Hey, this is some large group of people, yeah? Thousands of you. And this is bullshit. Right? Absolute bullshit.

SPEAKER_00

Where have we heard this before? With the exactly, exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

The thousands and the tens of thousands, the hundreds of thousands. There were, in fact, I think about maybe between 30, maybe 50 people, tops who had turned up, most of them journalists, who were looking for a fluff story. Because here's a he again, this is context is is everything here. This is this is 2015. This is uh a reality TV star deciding he wants to become president. I mentioned Jesse the Body Venture in the last episode. He was, you know, pro-wrestling guy who pivoted to politics in his in his native state um Minnesota, and he becomes governor in uh 1999, I think. That same year, Hulk Hogan starts going on talk shows saying, Yeah, I'm gonna run for president. And there's this there's this uh very funny moment. I forget, I think it's on Jay Leno, because he was always tight with Jay Leno. Yeah. And I think I think Leno asks him, you know, so which party are you gonna run for? Are you a Republican or a Democrat? And Hogan's like, well, I'm somewhere in between. Uh just just yeah, again, just blagging it. Like, doesn't you know, it's just again, it's it's it's it's it's pro wrestling, it's gimmick. Um, Hulk Hogan, as we know, as an aside, goes on to become big MAGA guy, and one of the last public appearances he made before his death last year. Was it last year or was it this year? It was last year. It was last year. It was last year, yeah. Uh was uh at the uh Trumps, whatever event it was, I forget which event it was now.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I can't find it.

SPEAKER_02

It might have been his inauguration, I can't remember. But anyway, he he turns up and yeah, he you know, he does the whole gimmick and he rips his shirt off and he's got a MAGA shirt underneath and all this, and it was revolting.

SPEAKER_00

I was I was so disappointed as a Hulkster fan. I was like, oh no.

SPEAKER_02

I always knew that guy was a rock. I mean, again, he could be an episode in and of himself. There's a lot of skeletons in Hulker in his closet, but uh as I say, never a fan and the person, Terry Belea, not a particularly nice guy either. But anyway, let's let's not speak ill of the dead, let's focus on those who are still with us. And Donald J. Trump, as mentioned, is the guy who is gonna come out and and present himself in in a fully gimmicked way as a potential Republican nominee for the presidency. And these journalists are there to get this story, which they think is gonna be a bit of fun. And this is this is the the thing about Donald Trump that people still fall into this trap to this day where they underestimate the man, they look at the absurdity of him, and they they go, Well, you know, obviously he doesn't mean what he says. And it's like, no, if this man says he's gonna do something, believe he's gonna try it at least, and he may well accomplish it. And this is this is the danger with Trump always. And this was that first sign, I think, despite the ridiculousness of this scene, we know where it goes, right?

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02

Um, and this is something that I mentioned in the last episode, but it bears repeating that that is is full Vince McMahon stuff. The perception is reality. Trump claims that there's more people at this event than there were, that sets the tone for the presidency, just as Vince McMahon claimed there were 93,000 people at WrestleMania 3, when in fact there were 75,000. It's about projecting a greater level of success and prosperity and popularity than you have. And we all remember in the first presidency, crowd sizes were an obsession for him.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

He had all of his staff lying routinely about how many people attended his rallies, how many people attended the inauguration. This was uh and this was something that was much talked about. And it's and it seems quaint now by comparison to the sort of stuff he's said since. But this was something that really caught a lot of people's attention. It's like how we have photos of how many people were at this thing. Like, like, how can he just say that's not there? We we we can see there aren't those people there, but he he he swears, you know, absolutely no, this there were hundreds of thousands of people.

SPEAKER_00

I I think he's at the point. Well, clearly he's at the point where he can't tell the difference or he doesn't want to admit the difference between you know, in a in a theatrical context, if you are lying about the success of your performance, or you know, how many people are attending your event, it doesn't really matter. And that's to some degree it's expected. Now, is he so clever that he's he's just taken that out of the wrestling world of the out of the theatrical world and he's applying it to politics, or is he that stupid that he's going, I'll just tell people there's 20,000 people when there's actually 50 and and it doesn't matter?

SPEAKER_02

That's that's the line he walks. It's somewhere between those two. And and we'll we'll get into that, you know, the psychology of that and the kind of alternate reality that he's created. But that alternate reality that that starts when he comes down the escalator. That's the start of something, and it's gone on into the second term. As we're recording this, uh, we are in the midst of the bombing of Iran. God knows where we'll be with that by the time this this actually drops. But in the last 48 hours, it's been we have completely wiped out their missile defenses. And uh the initial strikes on Iran last year, I think it was, it was, you know, we completely wiped out their nuclear capabilities. The economy is the greatest thing ever when it's demonstrably anything but you know, yeah, facts and figures belie that. And the thing about this is yes, all politicians lie, and this is lying, it's it's it's world-class lying, but it's not just lying. Like this is what people get wrong about Trump. It's not just lying, it's inflations of success that in some cases are the absolute opposite of the objective reality. That has been the key to his political image from day one. Up is down, black is white. It's about distorting perceptions. And for lifelong wrestling fans like myself, this performance at Trump Tower was the first indication that this presidential run was going to mimic a lot of the stuff we saw at WrestleMania 23, and it was in effect going to be like watching a wrestler run for office, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, and and and I think what strikes me about uh everything up until this point, yeah, he's he is larger than life, obviously. Um, but he his whole modus operandi is just to to say, right, I'm gonna do the the biggest thing. And that and that is a part of inflating the figures and and inflating his success. I'm gonna put the biggest, boldest, most ridiculous idea out there. If someone stops me, okay, then we'll deal with it. Right. If someone challenges me and says, actually you're lying, then we'll deal with it and we'll work backwards. But if no one if no one challenges me, we'll just run with that that lie and we'll run with that inflation of figures, right?

SPEAKER_02

We'll work backwards and we'll perhaps suggest that it never happened. That's the other thing. Yeah, you know, you know, sometimes it it works like that. But you're right, that that it is key, it is a key cycle uh of the way Trump operates, is that you you do the biggest, brashest, boldest thing possible, and then if you can get away with it, great. If not, you you change tack, usually in the form of a strategic retreat. But this is this is all part as I said, as I said in the first episode of wrestling psychology, which I think Trump learned not just as a pro wrestling fan when he was younger, but during his interactions at various WrestleManias, his his work at WrestleMania 23 in particular. The you can tell that he's had conversations with Vince McMahon about this. You can tell that he's absorbed through Osmosis a lot of that experience and how wrestlers work and how that that fake universe they they they exist in functions. Before we get into this though, we do need, I think, for for folks who are not wrestling geeks like myself to define some terminology, right? Because you you you flag this that you know as as someone who has a peripheral knowledge of wrestling, you know some of these things, but then the actual ins and outs of them don't. Wrestling has its own language. So what are some of the things we need to define before we go forward?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So well, I don't know. I I I think I think you can be really helpful to me, particularly here. So um, yeah, I've I've picked up a lot of wrestling knowledge through osmosis um over time. So um we have this idea of of having a gimmick. So what is what's a gimmick? Give us some examples.

SPEAKER_02

So a gimmick is is yeah, as I said in the last episode, it if it's successful, it's usually an inflated version of your own personality. What comes with the gimmick though is it's not just presentation. So I mentioned that Trump has the long ties, the fake hair, the the overcoat, the the suits cut a certain way. I mean, all part I mean, Vladimir Zelensky has a gimmick. You know, since the since the war, he was in he was in his fit his sort of the green jumper, the fatigues, and then he's pivoted in part because of that awkward exchange at the White House to this sort of military-style coat with passes for a suit, you know. Uh, he's another guy who who, again, he comes from the world of showbiz. He's understood from day one his role as as president of Ukraine is part of it, is sort of projecting a gimmick of defiance, and he's done it incredibly well. So it's not like Trump's Trump has a monopoly on this, but one thing that I think is unique about Trump's gimmick is, and this is where the pro wrestling thing comes in, is that the larger than life personality boasts, one of his most infamous is that he said he could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot someone and he wouldn't lose any voters, which is that thing of projecting overconfidence, projecting strength, projecting power. You know, only the most powerful person on earth could do that. And another thing that's really big about his gimmick is that he never loses. This is absolutely fundamental to the personality, because again, it's not just presentation, it's personality. To this day, he claims he never lost the 2020 election, even though he did. He will die claiming that he never lost the 2020 election. Even the people around him who went to bat for him because they had to, even they, a lot of them have kind of eased back and go, well, yeah, yeah, he probably he probably didn't, you know, win. He will never ever admit that he lost the 2020 election because Donald Trump pathologically has to be a winner. He has to win. Because that is a big part of the image the gimmick here projected to his supporters from the start is that if you back me, I'm the winner. And everyone loves a winner, right? Everyone loves a winner. Some, you know, more terminology, jobbers, right? Jobbers are the people who always lose in wrestling. Uh the people who never win the titles, never become the big stars. You no one cheers for them. No one wants to cheer a jobber, but they'll cheer the guy with the belt. Trump, a big part of his gimmick has always been going right back to the apprentices. He's the guy in the big chair, giving the orders, he's the winner. Everyone else, he's the son around which everyone else revolves.

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm. And and and for him, it you know, even typically in wrestling, even if someone is winning and they're the they're the bad guy, people still cheer. So he's working entirely on that premise, isn't he? He's just he's he's learnt that, he's picked that, lifted that out and gone, it works, it works in that scenario. Yeah. Yeah, why not?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it doesn't matter if you're a bad guy or a good guy, so long as long as the crowd is is is supporting you and behind you, you're winning. Yeah, that's him.

SPEAKER_00

So so then in in in the context of Trump, of course, how how is he promoting himself? What's his what's his promo shtick?

SPEAKER_02

So a promo is a a wrestling term that applies to the verbal exchange between wrestlers, usually when they're building up to a match. So to cut a promo on someone is to lambass them, to run them down to say, I'm gonna beat you, da-da-da, whatever it is. Now, again, watching Trump's run for the presidential nomination for the Republican nomination initially as a wrestling fan, he he did something that no one had ever done. You know, this is meant to be, you know, respectable debates where you get up and duh. He just got up and cut wrestling promos on people, you know. And and a big part of promos is you know, you come up with these little nicknames for your for your enemies. And and Trump, you know, Ron DeSantis becomes meatball Ron. Uh Chris Christie, sloppy Chris Christie, you know, making fun of the fact that he's overweight. Uh Jeb Bush is low energy Jeb. These days he's still doing, you know, Gavin Newsom is is Governor Newsom. Um he was calling Justin uh Trudeau, you know, Governor Trudeau for a while when he was doing that whole thing about Canada's going to become a state of the US. Elizabeth Warren, Pocahontas, you know, racial. Well, this is the thing. Like a lot of these attacks that a lot of these nicknames, and sleepy Joe Biden, you know, that's the infamous one. Like, he's attacking, he's attacking people's uh its race, its physical appearance, it's mental acuity. These are the kind of base level attack lines that pro wrestlers use in their exchanges. You know, Stone Cold Steve Austin and and and the rock back in the day, you know, you know, uh Rock could call Stone Cold, you know, bold-headed son of a bitch, you know, uh, you know, and Austin and Fred Nopener kind of whoop ass on you, and and you know, I will lay the smack down and all this. You know, it's it's snappy aggressive sayings that are used. And Trump from day one was using this, and no one knew how to come back to it. To this day, people struggle with with it because again, we're talking about politics, which in theory is meant to be, in theory, it's meant to be civilized adult debate. What Trump did by injecting, and it's not to say it wasn't already there. There was already, you know, you already had some people who had gone a bit off piste in the way they they discussed, but what he did was he lowered the tone so much he he took the policy out of politics and he turned it into promos. Yeah, and that's what it is today. You see Pete Hegseth getting up and trying to sell people on Iran. What was it he said the other day? He was like, you know, we we we uh the the new Ayatollah has come in. Uh we believe he's injured and disfigured. You know, it's so it's not it's not just sort of graphic chest beating, you know, you know, we we have we have not just defeated him and taken the belt, but we beat him and we took his woman. You know, it's that sort of it's it's that's wrestling. That's wrestling.

SPEAKER_00

It's the ch it's that childish approach, isn't it? And it is childish. It's it's it's what you would aim at, like an adolescent audience, which clearly is wrestling.

SPEAKER_02

But it works, it but it but it works because you know, we live in the age of the soundbite, right? And this is something that some politicians have got, others, to be honest, uh just don't seem to get. And I think uh just to get off track a little bit here, but politics writ large now is in this period where it's having to adjust to the era of the soundbite, the the snappy promo, that that pro wrestling ethos is right through politics. And I don't think that's gonna change. I think the way we consume media these days is that you politicians are gonna have to adapt or die. And arguably Trump is the guy who is gonna when it when the history historians look back at this however many years in the future, they're gonna conclude that Trump is the guy who who really alters that paradigm and reduces it to this.

SPEAKER_00

He's I I think it's the it's embracing social media, isn't it? But not not only that, it's it's in it's like the TikTok generation of short attention spans.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I and that and that's all people are gonna remember is that little catchphrase, right?

SPEAKER_02

And and when you've got when you've got the this when there's not a lot of room to discuss things, or when you're reducing the room to discuss things, when you're you're reducing things to promos, that also means that you can say stuff without any kind of critique because you just you just say say the thing and move on. So you know, Hulkamania's running wild, right? Hulk Hogan was still saying that phrase right up until the day he died. And it's like, no, no, dude, Hulkamania died a long time ago, you know, there's no no one's no one's into you anymore. But but he would still say that phrase. And it's just like when Trump gets up and says, you know, America's running wild. He basically says America's running wild, you know, we're more successful than ever. The economy, da da. It's Hulkermania's running wild. You say the thing, you cut the promo, you move on to the next promo, and there's no room for any debate or critique. And that the frantic pace at which Trump has deployed wrestling promos as a form of not just self-promotion, but policy making has completely caught everyone off guard. Like no one, journalists, democratic politicians, whoever, no one seems to be able to keep up with it. Gavin Newsom's probably made the most valiant attempt, but even then it comes off a little bit hackney-eyed. But anyway, it's not policy, it's promos. That's the that's the point there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And and so then to that end, I think there's another term as well that that we should clarify because I think this is this is highly relevant. So a shoot. What is what do you mean by shoot?

SPEAKER_02

So there's two two things, there's two modes of wrestling. There's one that's the work and the shoot.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Shoot basically means this is real.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

If you say something's for a shoot, it means it's real. An example of that would be just trying to think in in terms of wrestling. If if in in the course of a match someone legitimately gets injured, right? A move goes wrong. Because I mean, the thing we have to remember about wrestling is yeah, yeah, it's it's fake in as much as the outcome of the matches are determined, but the physical moves they're doing are incredibly dangerous. Yeah. And there's been many occasions where people get injured because a move goes wrong. And in that instance, we move from a work to a shoot. The guy's broken his leg, for example. You can't continue the match. So all of a sudden, what you're seeing on camera changes. The referee will make a signal, a stretcher will come out, and the and the match is gonna have to change, and the whole, the whole storyline is gonna have to change, right? That's a shoot. A work is what happens when it goes well. A work is when a wrestler goes through their uh probably the best way to explain it is a wrestler goes through their sequence of moves, and there'll be signature moves. You know, Hulk Hogan had the body slam and the leg drop. When you saw that, you knew that's the end of the match. When he body slams Andre the Giant at WrestleMania 3, he's gonna then drop a leg on it on his throat, and that's the one, two, three pin. You know that you're conditioned as wrestling fans. That's the work. Obviously, if Andre the Giant wanted to kick out of that pinfall, he could have because he's Andre the Giant, he weighs 500 pounds, and and Hulk Hogan dropping his leg over his throat isn't gonna do anything to him.

SPEAKER_00

But I don't know, he had a bad back by that point.

SPEAKER_02

He did have a bad back by that point, but still, I mean, the point is that you know, worked moves, a lot of wrestling moves, I said before, a lot of them can hurt, but if they're worked well, they don't hurt. And that's the art of wrestling, is making it look real without actually hurting someone. And what Trump Trump understands working very well. Um, you can't be a gimmick without working the crowd, without getting in your getting in your hits. In lieu of moves, he's got recognizable turns of phrase, you know, that he's deployed at rallies forever. Lock her up, make America great again is probably his greatest sort of worked phrase. Phrases that he can just say and people will cheer. Those are those are his moves. Those are his moves. And he doesn't do rallies today for a variety of reasons, I think, but but back in the first term, he would do political rallies every other week, usually just to keep working, just to just to keep people, the crowd invested in his. Performance as much as anything else. And it was always the greatest hits. You know, make America great again, call opponents' names, talk about Mexican gangs, talk about the eating the dogs, left-wing radicals, left-wing radicals like Joe Biden. Um, locker up as mentioned, you know, it it was on repeat for a long time. The greatest hits. Just as if you watch enough wrestling matches, and it could be Hulk Hogan, could be anyone, eventually you go, okay, well, he's done that move, and I know what's going to come next. You know, stuff gets repetitive.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Uh, because it's as wrestling matches are as staged as as Trump's performances to the public. And the thing is that and this is something that I think needs to be needs to be said that that the misnomer about wrestling fans is that they they they think it's real. All right. This is again for for the people who are like, whoa, wrestling fans are morons. Wrestling fans have known that what they're watching is simulated combat since probably the 1920s, right? They they know they're being worked, but they buy into it because they want to be entertained. It's just like when you watch a film, you know Tom Cruise isn't really leaping from that explosion, right?

SPEAKER_00

I think he is though. Well, I know if it's Tom Cruise, it probably is.

SPEAKER_02

That's a bad example. I don't know. You know, any any normal sane actor is not leaping from that explosion. All right. Exactly. And and they are not really shooting that person dead. But you suspend your disbelief.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Because you want to be entertained. And that's the art of the work.

SPEAKER_00

It is. So this brings us on nicely to this idea of Kfabe, which for me is the most interesting part. As coming coming to wrestling later in my life, I was like, really? I don't understand why this is a thing. So can you tell us what that is?

SPEAKER_02

So Kfabe, Kfabe is both the most interesting sort of terminology within wrestling, the most esoteric, and I think the most important for understanding how Trump works. Kfabe is carnie speak. A lot of these terms come from the carnivals because that's where wrestling started. It was all comes out of carni. And the best guess is no one, no one really knows for certain, but it probably comes out of a carni speak for keep it fake. Uh that's the that's the uh prevailing assumption. And when a wrestler refers to Kfabe, it's the art of maintaining the alternative reality in which they operate. Okay. You can't work a crowd without creating the alternative reality, which says that when you come out um with with with the belt, you are a champion. Because obviously no one's a champion of anything. The the belt is a prop, right? You haven't won anything, it's a prop. But you project to the crowd through Kfabe that no, if I come out with the belt, that means I am a champion. Just like a boxing champion who's actually earned that belt through fighting is a boxing champion, or you know, the people who win the Premier League hold up the cup, whatever, you know, that sort of thing. So that's that's one art of it. It's the art, Kfabe is the art of blending the real, the fact that wrestlers, as mentioned, do get injured, and it is a physical job they do with the unreal. The fact that no one can take 10 straight punches to the face. Um, because this is a big spot in wrestling. This is a move that happens a lot. You get someone in the corner and the crowd counts along. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. It's usually the good guy pounding in the face. If that were real, the guy would be maybe dead, given the size of the people, uh the people thumping him. If not, he'd be battered, he'd be bruised, he'd be bleeding, his eye would be swolled up. But no. Instead, that same guy who's taken 10 punches to the face will then, you know, 30 seconds later will be suplexing the guy who was punching him. And that's and you know that's not real. When you're watching it, it's not real. But K Fabe dictates that you accept that alternate reality. And this, as I say, has been absolutely central to Trump's operation. You have to create that reality in order to thrive in it, and this is where alternative facts come in. Now, most people will remember that phrase from Trump won, the first reign of Donald Trump. It's the same as the wrestling fact, which is that if you throw someone into the ropes, they're gonna bounce off the ropes and run back at you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Right? Physics, no, that's not gonna happen. If someone throws you in the ropes, you can just go, you know what, I'm just gonna stop running. Um, but in in in the wrestling world, no, the second you throw someone in the ropes, they have to run back at you to receive a move, right? That's an alternative fact in the wrestling world. Just as Trump has an alternative fact about crowd sizes, about the outcome of the 2020 election, all these kind of things. And right now, what we're dealing with in Trump 2 is a different alternative reality, where Trump is a changing gimmick, where he is now a warrior president, right? This is the the the new reality we're in is that Trump, in Trump one, he he was no wars, right? That was the thing. And the alternative reality was that America is gonna become more isolationist, it's gonna basically move itself away from from any sort of international engagement, and we're gonna focus on making America great again. The new alternative reality is that America is is in the part of a second Monroe Doctrine or Trump road doctrine, I think. It's really clumsy. Uh what but I think Hegseth has used that term, the Trump Row Doctrine.

SPEAKER_00

It's another soundbite, isn't it? It's yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a promo.

SPEAKER_02

It's a it's a it's a catchphrase. And just for people who don't know, the Monroe Doctrine describes America's policy of basically trying to control the Western hemisphere back in the 1800s. And so what's happening here is that Trump is is kind of reshaping the reality, which is that, well, I said I wasn't a war president. That was my promise to you, the voters, but actually, no, what we're doing now is is war. Um, and I'm a warrior. And this is despite the fact, and just the other day, actually, this was fascinating, he put up a picture, and this shows that, you know, he's clearly responding to criticisms of this turn because he's put up a picture of himself, I think, at military college, which he attended, which is not military school. Like he didn't, he's he was never in the military. Infamously, this man was a draft dodger, right? But but he put up a picture of himself in like this uniform with his parents and was like, you know, proudly military or whatever. And that's because he's he's shaping the facts to suit a new narrative. The new narrative is the new fake, the new the new kayfabe, is that Trump is a warrior president leading a warrior nation in a time of war, which is the exact opposite to the reality he created in the first Trump reign, which was that we are putting blue-collar workers again, their jobs back, uh, we are making America great again. That that rhetoric is completely died away. And that's because the kayfabe reality of Trump world has changed.

SPEAKER_00

I think we've seen recently some really shocking and really sickening examples of where we have that that I'm a warrior president and I'm gonna blend, I'm gonna seamlessly blend reality with video game footage. So we have these we have these little videos that are put out of particularly with the the torpedoing of the Iranian ship, where we've got footage which is then kind of cut with with fake action films? Yeah, like like video game footage, right? Um like Call of Duty or whatever, uh with you know with with with bigger explosions. And yes, there's there's blurring the lines, but that is just for me, is it's just sickening, and it's obviously playing into a very specific audience, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And again, that's that's material that were because that's being put out on like the White House's official social media. That's the sort of stuff that wouldn't have happened in the first term, and that's because the the kayfabe world he was creating was very different. And I think that the most egregious form of kayfabe to my mind in Trump world is how they have kayfabed, to use the verb of the term, which again is is used in wrestling, how they have completely kayfabed what happened on on January 6th, the the insurrection. Um, that has been twisted from being an anti-democratic riot and an attempt to sort of seize power into an act of patriotism by the the people who who, you know, that they've been described as as patriots who were who are actually standing up for the constitution and all this stuff when they when it's the exact opposite. And and that's because in in Trump world, you know, to be patriotic is to be loyal to Trump, right? That's that's the that's the that's the alternative reality. And the way that MAGA works is that, and there's been some good research on this, on the psychology of of MAGA folks and how they actually interpret Trump. And a lot of them have admitted that they know that a lot of what he's saying isn't true. They they but they're along for the ride anyway. They they're along for the ride, they are allowing, they are suspending their disbelief. And it could be because one of the things they think is true, and this is another way in which K Fabe is really essential, is that when you're when you're watching wrestling, for example, you know, as I say, the 10 punches in the corner, that ain't that ain't hurting anyone. And you know that the two people in the ring are cooperating with each other to give you a performance of simulated combat. However, and and this is particularly true today with the internet, and there's a lot of sort of backstage websites that talk about, you know, the backstage machinations of wrestling. However, if you know that in real life, those two people, not their gimmicks, but those two people portraying those gimmicks, if they don't like each other personally, then you will buy into it more because there's a hint of reality in there. And that's how Trump works his fans, works his supporters. He will get up, he will do the greatest hits, he will say, he will say, you know, offhandedly, you know, yeah, yeah, January 6th, you know, great Patriots, da da da da with a wink and a smile. And they will know from footage, it's like, no, no, no, this was this was a yeah, a riot, you know, this was and and police officers died and this was bad. But they will go along with it because somewhere later on in the speech, Trump will say, Yeah, and I hate immigrants, and the person listening might hate immigrants. So they'll buy into that bit of truth and they will suspend their disbelief about the non-truth, and and that that will carry them along. That's how Kfabe works. It's blending the two and being able to pick and choose that which you want to believe in and that which you you you know is untrue and that which you you you think might be real. Trump is a master at creating that gray zone. He does this in the way he projects himself into an international audience as well. One line he always repeats is, and this has been particularly true in these conflicts, you know, press reporters are like, Well, so what's gonna happen next? He's like, Well, just wait and see. Yeah, stay tuned for the next part of the show. Because it is all a show, right? Yeah, yeah. And that's that's a form of that's that is, I mean, that's that's something Vince McMahon would do. Like it's it's kayfabing reality. It's going, no, the reality is that people are dying and and there's a war going on, and we'd like to know what your plans are. And he's like, Well, yeah, you just have to wait and see because you know, trust, trust in the storyline that I'm that I'm giving you, trust in the non-reality.

SPEAKER_00

I I I still I I struggle to understand the psychology, and I think a lot of people would of saying, Well, I'm gonna suspend my disbelief of of of 99% of this stuff, but there's one thing I want to hear, and and and that is what I just and I will never understand the psychology there.

SPEAKER_02

What Trump has done as well is that he has taken that traditional baseline level of well, all politicians lie about stuff, they obfuscate, and instead he's done this thing where he's gone, well, I'm just gonna lie about basically everything, and I'm just gonna create a completely alternative universe. And within that, just like you do in wrestling, and within that, people can buy into the stuff they want to buy into and they can ignore the stuff that they know is bullshit. And that to your point about you know, asking the question, how does that psychology work? Well, I think it's because what what Trump understands is that is that we people want people will hear what they want to hear, they will cheer who they want to cheer, just like in wrestling. They will support whatever gimmick they buy into. And Trumps use that knowledge to create this world where and you mentioned this before, it doesn't really matter what he says. He knows it doesn't matter what he says because people will still either believe or they won't believe, but they're along for the ride. That's the and it is it is like terrifying to think about it, but that's kind of where he's gotten us to by creating this kayfabe world. He's got it to a place where you have to basically question everything you're seeing, just like you do when you when you attend a wrestling event. You have to question everything. And if you want to sit there and be critical and question everything, go, well, this is clearly nonsense. There's no way that that guy could lift up a 400-pound man by himself and and you know, slam him through a table and then that man get up. That seems ridiculous to me. Or you can just go along for the ride and be entertained, and that's what Trump banks on is that people will go along for the ride and be entertained. And the sad thing is that's a lot of people. That's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00

Unfortunately, and and I I think also coming back to wrestling specifically, there's there's there's still an appetite and now a growing appetite for we've got to have the create the biggest pop, right? There's gotta be that moment.

SPEAKER_02

Which is a crowd, a crowd response, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. So that's another key term to define. Um, but we but people almost expect that. So when you have a a match that there isn't anything like that, and and it's just it plays out and there's no pop, you know, people are sort of disappointed. And that is translating to to Trump, absolutely, because yeah, the the timing of what he does, as you say, like what he says doesn't matter, but the timing of it pops the crowd, yeah. And and that's the important thing here, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02

And to to take that analogy further, let's let's use Keir Starmer as an example of a of a straight politician, right? You know, he's he's a match, he he's a wrestling match that no one's cheering. You know, he's a wrestling match that no one's invested in. He can talk, and people are like, yeah, well, you know, I I'm watching this guy talk. Yeah. Where's the excitement? Where's the where's where's the where's the where's the catchphrases? Where's the pop? Trump is doing the exact opposite. He is giving you new content every day. He's giving he's giving you and when I say when I say cheer for, just to just to break that down a bit more, I'm not just talking about the people who are fans of Trump. There is an entire ecosystem of Trump critics that exist today. And they will deny this till they're blue in the face, but they're lying too. They love that he creates chaos, they love it because it gives them something to latch on to. People he his critics are addicted to the Trump show just as much as his fans at this point, and that's precisely how he wants it. And it's the same dynamic in wrestling. Either you're there to boo the heel or cheer the baby face, doesn't matter. So long as you're tuning into the show, that's all the promoter cares about. And Trump is the promoter, performer, everything.

SPEAKER_00

This is not everybody, but but some people would say, you know, well, it even his critics are like, Well, I don't like what he's doing, but he's shaking things up.

SPEAKER_02

So yes, yeah, that old chestnut.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. It's uncomfortable. But yeah, he's well, he's kind of at least he's shaking things up, which is never a good thing.

SPEAKER_02

Um so let's move on. And in fact, we'll move into sort of closing this up actually, but just seeing where we are now with with Trump and and wrestling and where that sits. Something which I think ties this in a bow neatly is that I mentioned this before, that Trump throughout his career has found people who've used to him, discarded them, found, found uh, you know, gimmicks or approaches or careers that have been useful for him, discarded them. Not so with Vince McMahon and the world of WWE. Trump is as tied to them today as he ever has been. In January 2024, Vince McMahon faced allegations of sex trafficking from a former employee, a woman by the name of Janelle Grant, with whom he had an extramarital affair. It's the subject of an ongoing lawsuit, and Trump apparently has well, he has voiced support for McMahon and apparently took several long phone calls with Vince, you know, like as a friend would, giving him support, giving him advice, probably advice on how to get out of a lawsuit like this. I don't know. So Trump's, yeah, I I know it's icky. It's icky.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's so uncomfortable because it just speaks of like if you're if you're in the you know, you're in the boys' club. So completely.

SPEAKER_02

And it but it's consistent, isn't it? This goes back to the 80s. This is what we were talking about in the last episode. So that's one connection that's still there. Vince and Trump are still great mates. Trump has not been taken out of the Hall of Fame. Uh, there's been some some protests amongst the wrestling community to have him taken out because of particularly his conduct in his second term, but uh that has not happened, and I doubt it will. Vince McMahon's wife, Linda McMahon, who I haven't mentioned so far, but she is a staunch Republican. She was part of Trump's uh cabinet in Trump one, and she is back again in Trump two, having given massive donations, several million dollars to the Trump campaign. She is Secretary for Education, which is hilarious because Linda McMahon is not someone with an education background at all, but she basically, you know.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So she so we have a member of the McMahon family who is part of the Trump cabinet. WWE is unambiguously a MAGA company. It's a MAGA-aligned company. I mentioned before that uh in the last episode that WWE is currently owned by an umbrella corporation called TKO Holdings, which also owns UFC. The head of UFC, Dana White, is uh is a uh an avowed Trump fan, uh very out uh very outspoken Trump supporter as part of the festivities for the 250th anniversary of the American War of Independence. Trump is gonna hold a UFC fight on the White House lawn, and they just announced the card the other day, which as a UFC fan, I'm looking at it and going, yeah, that's that's not very impressive, but whatever. Doesn't matter. Point is again, again, pro wrestling. It's not pro-wrestling, but it's pro wrestling adjacent. He's gonna put UFC, hyper masculine, tough guy sport. Yeah, it's projecting again the warrior. We're doing warrior Trump now, so it's gonna be UFC on the White House lawn because that's the spirit of America. That's what the founding fathers wanted, Jane.

SPEAKER_00

They did really, they wanted they wanted crass tacky entertainment.

SPEAKER_02

They wanted into it.

SPEAKER_00

They wanted shirtless guys beating themselves up, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yep, outside the White House. That's again, I I I refer to the Biff Tannan's casino being circled by bikers in in Back to the Future 2. This is this is what we're dealing with. Uh, but again, that's that's very closely aligned because it's all again, TKO, Trump, WWE, UFC, they're all part of the same, you know, happy tree house. And the current guy in charge of WWE, Vince McMahon's um son-in-law, a former professional wrestler by the name of Paul Levesque, goes by the gimmick name of Triple H Hunter Hurst Helmsley, massive man in a suit. Uh giant man. Giant man in a suit. He is now running WWE since Vince had to bail out because of the sex allegations of the Janelle Grant case. He is very close to Trump. There's been pictures of him and his family in the White House in the Oval Office. Uh, Trump has been cited. Uh, he's talked about Triple H and how he admires him as a businessman, stuff like that. Trump has also appeared in the lead up to the election, the most recent election that he won. He appeared on the podcast run by a pro wrestling alumni, a legendary figure, The Undertaker.

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02

A real name Mark Callaway, who is a lifelong Republican, big Trump supporter, had him on his podcast. And again, this was something that to go back to my previous point about how politics has changed. This was derided by liberals and the Democrats. You know, how crass he's gone on this podcast. That podcast, I think, had about six million views, something like that. Just as Trump went on Joe Rogan. Again, you know, it's all in the same atmosphere, and people derided that. It's like, no, this works. This, this, this gets people. And as part of that podcast, Trump actually did a photo shoot with The Undertaker and another pro wrestler who has become a Republican politician, uh, a man by the name of Glenn Jacobs, who went under the wrestling wrestling moniker of Kane. Um, and him and The Undertaker were Kfabe brothers on television. And Trump did this thing, this photo shoot with them, and he said, you know, we're this is the tag team you want to get behind, basically, for to lead America. And this, again, to further explore this weird connection between pro wrestling and politics. This was in response to the fact that Dave Batista, who I mentioned in the previous episode, who's gone on to become an actor, he was a former WWE champion, he is a he is a staunch Democrat, and he actually released a video basically appealing to, for want of a better term, the manosphere. Because Dave Batista is a big, jacked, manly guy. And he, you know, riddled with tattoos, everything. And he he goes he posted this video saying, hey guys, look, Trump's a loser. He's a weakling. You know, real men, you know, don't aren't aren't draft dodgers. Real men aren't this and all this stuff. And this was this was the riposte from The Undertaker and Kane. So you've got this, you know, wrestlers involved in politics and Trump weaponizing that. And it sounds absurd, and objectively, it is absurd, but it is reality. You know, he won that election. I'm not saying he won that election because he went on the Undertaker's podcast, but I don't think it hurt him one jot. In fact, I'm pretty sure it helped him.

SPEAKER_00

Well, they they say the the that no publicity is bad publicity. Sometimes that's not true, but yeah, I think in this case, yeah. Um and it's it uh it's honestly it's just about engagement at this point isn't it and getting some of these um these really well respected names these these characters that people know and love to to to come out there and and support him well I I do you do you think this is gonna have uh a negative impact on WWE or not?

SPEAKER_02

Are we is it the s is it the same crowd so there's a bit of backlash at the minute within the wrestling community about the connections between because everyone's always known that Vince and Trump have been mates but the connection between the WWE now and Trump and TKO has really become very um unambiguous uh to the extent that actually that uh John Cena legendary wrestler had his retirement match in December I think it was the last year and there were rumors that Trump was going to turn up to that he didn't in the end but there there was a big there was a big sort of a you know groundswell of saying you know Trump's gonna turn up for this because it's a big wrestling event Madison Square stuff. So so yeah um those ties have been criticized by some wrestling fans are wrestling fans and you know the politics of wrestling fans is is interesting you know you do you it there are Republicans but there's a lot of liberal wrestling fans and I think again a lot of them just shut that out and just go you know what I just want to be entertained. The politics of this I'm gonna ignore because I mean I I I don't think there's many wrestling fans who look at Vince McMahon and go yeah he's a good guy. I think I think we all know he's a bad person. Yeah who's done some wicked things but again you people still enjoy listening to the Smiths even if they don't like Morrissey's politics. One thing I do want to end on though which I think is important to note and I'm gonna put two photos up here one is of Trump's presidential photo in his first reign and the other is of Trump's presidential photo in his second reign. Now I remember this distinctly Jay was it was flying to the US and and doing customs clearance in Dublin and US customs TSA clearance and they have the portrait of the president up and I so I've been in the line looking at this portrait these two different portraits on two different occasions and it's striking because that first portrait it's he's smiling yeah he looks kind of healthy he looks normal he looks like a president right and that's because in that first reign he was a babyface. He was babyfacing it was I'm gonna make America great again I am going to uh repair all the damage I'm gonna drain the swamp remember that yes I'm gonna you know the economy's gonna be better than that I'm gonna be for America that second portrait and again he's the guy who decides how these portraits are gonna look he decided for his second reign we're doing a gimmick change this is he we now we have heel Trump we have this is the this is the face of revenge right there this is revenge for everyone who who thought I lost the election revenge for everyone who voted for Biden revenge against everyone who derided me and mocked me in my first term this is warrior Trump. That's the gimmick we're doing now and I think it's an appropriate thing to end on is that you know to my point I said it in the first episode and I I hope I've proved my point here this man is pro-wrestling and the only way you're going to understand Donald Trump and the way he has reshaped American politics the way he has hollowed out the party of Lincoln and made it the tr the party of Trump is to understand that what you're watching is pro-wrestling and you're watching a pro-wrestler in the White House. Well to to this end can I ask you a final question sure let's let's try to end on a positive note if possible I don't know I don't know I don't it depends how you spin this right all right okay okay let's try so in a in a in a parallel universe is there a Vince McMahon who's out there doing politics he is the president that's an interesting question you know because Vince Vince McMahon is an incredibly ambitious person and he's had a lot of outside ventures all of them notably have failed uh you know he did he did body a bodybuilding federation back in the 90s that was terrible but the steroids thing happened and he was like yeah that's a terrible idea I don't think it would have been successful either uh regardless of that and and then the XFL his alternative to the NFL his unwoke version of the NFL uh that that you know it went down like a lead balloon um one thing he has kind of stayed out of his politics to be honest like he's you know he's given money to the Republican Party on occasion but he I think Vince kind of knows his lane um and enjoys that lane that said in hypothetical world we we have president Vince McMahon I think we'd have a lot of similar stuff we'd have a gimmick we'd have outrageous press conferences we would have sound bites we would have promos being cut on people it would be a wild ride but and this goes back to what I was saying in the first episode about how some people have testified to the fact that uh Vincent Mann is a more polite version of Trump I do think we would have a more restrained we'd have a wildly eccentric guy in the White House who who terms of you know dignity in conduct doesn't befit the office but I do think he'd be perhaps a bit more restrained and more conventional in some respects um there there are some differences between Trump and McMahon I think in terms of not necessarily in terms of the God complex I think they've both got a bit of that but but but Vince Vince is perhaps a more cautious character in some respects. Does seem to have a capacity for some form of introspection which is quality that Trump doesn't seem to possess and I think yeah it would it would be interesting it as I say it'd be a wild wild ride but I do think it would perhaps be perhaps a little more peaceful perhaps a little a little more focused on making money and perhaps a little less focused on you know starting wars as it is right now. Maybe I don't know it's it's it's one if there's if if there's any you know wrestling fans watching comment on that what do you reckon a Vince a Vince uh a Vince presidency would look like because it's it's a really interesting hypothetical and given where we are now you know and I said before Vince intends to live forever maybe maybe this is not a hypothetical maybe we get president Vince before we're done because that's that's where we are right now with politics. Anything is possible. And on that note and on that note thank you all for being with us on this two episodes we kept us two episodes very restrained of us do keep liking subscribing and following History's Devils on the Apple the Spotify watch us on the YouTube wherever you can and uh we will see you next time for another edition of History's Devils

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James Crossland

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