History's Devils

The Carny & The Showman: How Donald Trump and Vince McMahon Conquered America, Pt.1

• James Crossland • Episode 12

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:03:03

Summary

Dive into one of the strangest and most revealing alliances in modern history as History’s Devils unpacks the decades-long relationship between Donald Trump and Vince McMahon.

In Part One of this two-part series, James and Jayne trace a 40-year connection between the future U.S. president and the controversial boss of World Wrestling Entertainment (WWE). From glitzy spectacle to behind-the-scenes scandal, they explore how ambition, media manipulation, and controversy fuelled both men’s rise to power.

Along the way, the hosts introduce a provocative thesis: to truly understand Donald Trump, you must first understand professional wrestling. Is modern American politics more performance than policy? And did the world of scripted rivalries, crowd psychology, and larger-than-life personas help shape a presidency?

 

Further Reading

 


Chapters 

00:00 - Welcome to History’s Devils: Exploring Modern Scoundrels
02:07 - The Multi-Dimensional Influence of WWE on Politics
04:02 - Trump and McMahon: Masters of Audience Suspension of Disbelief
09:20 - Vince McMahon’s Childhood and Persona: Power and Insecurity
15:19 - Wrestling Territories, Monopoly, and Ruthless Business Tactics
18:05 - The Birth of WrestleMania and Its Cultural Impact
22:15 - Scandals, Legal Troubles, and Teflon Resilience
28:13 - Trump’s Early Wrestling Ties and the 1980s ‘Greed is Good’ Era
31:49 - WrestleMania in Atlantic City: Branding Manipulation
36:27 - Trump’s Return to Wrestling in the 2000s and ‘The Apprentice’
42:45 - Building the Trump Gimmick: From Wrestler to Reality TV Star
52:36 - The 2007 WrestleMania 23 and the ‘Battle of the Billionaires’
59:55 - The Final Face-Off and Trump’s Iconic WWE Persona
62:09 - Wrestling, Politics, Power, and the Future Landscape 

Thanks to SOULFULJAMTRACKS for their tune "Dark Halloween"

Follow HISTORY's DEVILS 

On Instagram @historysdevils

https://www.instagram.com/historysdevils/

On Substack

https://jamescrossland.substack.com/


Follow JAMES CROSSLAND

On Bluesky @jamescrossland.bsky.social

https://bsky.app/profile/jamescrossland.bsky.social


Tag HISTORY's DEVILS

@historysdevils


#HistorysDevils #JamesCrossland #HistoryPodcast #Podcast #History #DarkHistory #HistoricalBiography #TrueHistory #HistoryDocumentary #Deepdive #Storytelling 

History's Devils is a history podcast exploring the lives of murderers, charlatans, psychopaths, dictators, war criminals, tyrants, demagogues, revolutionaries, cult leaders, conquerors, fraudsters, and other controversial figures.

History's Devils is hosted by James Crossland, professor of international history and author of:

Rogue Agent: From Secret Plots to Psychological Warfare, the Untold Story of Robert Bruce Lockhart

The Rise of Devils: Fear and the Origins of Modern Terrorism...

SPEAKER_00

Hello folks, and welcome to History's Devil's A podcast journey through the lives of murderers, shelatons, psychopaths, and shit heels. And we do not have time for a clever intro today because this is gonna be an epic. This is gonna be at least a two-parter, maybe three. I don't know. And Jane is right to be trepidatious about that. Welcome back to the program, Jane friend.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you very much. It's lovely to be back and talking about some more, let's say, modern scoundrels.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, two guys who are actually alive, just about. Just about. They are old, but they are still alive. Um, you last joined us for the for the inaugural two-parter of History's Devils, which was about Francis Tumblete, the Jack the Ripper suspect. We are back today. You're you're a glutton for punishment. We are going to be talking about two people today. Um, two devils, both of whom, as say, are alive, which makes it a unique contribution. I don't think we've talked about anyone who's alive so far, both of whom are very weird, highly successful, and by any objective measure, quite bad human beings. They've done bad stuff, these two guys.

SPEAKER_01

I think that's it's an understatement, really.

SPEAKER_00

I think you were quite generous there, but trying to be polite, trying to be polite, keep this as professional as possible. The two men in question are the 45th and 47th president of the United States of America, Donald John Trump, and the godfather of professional wrestling, who, until recently being dethroned on account of a sex scandal, more on that later, uh has forever been the head of the world's most successful wrestling company, World Wrestling Entertainment WWE, or for older listeners, you might know it as the World Wrestling Federation, the WWF, Vincent Kennedy McMahon Jr. So at this point, people are probably saying, Trump and a wrestling promoter. You know, what's the connection there? Well, a couple of connections. One, Trump and McMahon have been friends and at times business partners for about 40 years now. During those 40 years, Trump has been very closely tied to the world of pro wrestling, uh, more closely tied than I think people give him credit for and has looked into. And he's had some influence on it, but most importantly, wrestling has had an influence on him. An influence, I would argue, that has been profound not just for Trump and his career, but for American politics. And that is the through line of these episodes. This is the thesis we're exploring. We have a thesis for the for these episodes. This is a this is a new thing. The thesis is this since Trump first won the presidency in 2016, political pundits and commentators, White House correspondents, international relations scholars, liberal academics, you know, professional smart people, right? They've been scratching their heads and in some cases losing their goddamn minds trying to figure out how this man, who is demonstrably unfit to be president of the world's most powerful country, how has he become president not once, but twice, whilst inciting an insurrection in between those two terms of office? How has he built this cult of personality around himself, the MAGA movement? Why has so much of that movement stayed with him through all the lies, the chaos, the broken promises, uh the criminality? How has Trump been so successful these last 10 years? Now, nothing is monocausal, right? There's obviously lots of reasons for this, and historians are going to be picking this apart and writing big old cash-in books on the subject of Trump and this era for decades to come. But for my part, I will say this: this is the thesis. You cannot understand the success of Donald Trump without understanding pro-wrestling. And that is because Donald Trump is pro-wrestling. Now, at this point, the same part of the audience who a few seconds ago were going, hang on a minute, what's the connection between Trump and McMahon? And then they're saying, What is this dipshit on about? Why would Trump being pro-wrestling? What's that matter? You know, uh, you know, we're talking about the most powerful and dangerous man in the world. We're talking about geopolitics, we're talking about American foreign policy, we're talking about domestic crisis, we're talking about big, important, serious stuff. Wrestling is this tawdry, low-red, classless, niche form of entertainment appreciated only by mouth-breathing simpletons who spend their weekends going on a quest for fire, right?

SPEAKER_01

Is that you?

SPEAKER_00

Well, let this lifelong wrestling fanslash history professor drop some knowledge on those people who are a bit critical about wrestling's place in the zeitgeist. World Wrestling Entertainment, formerly known as the WWF, is a global professional wrestling company that is currently valued at approximately $40 billion. Its stock price, because it went public in 1999 on the stock exchange, is currently valued at the time of recording at $220 a share. For comparison, Pfizer, the people who developed the drug that ended the COVID pandemic, their stock price, $26 a share.

SPEAKER_01

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

WWE's last quarterly earnings were $390 million, that is up 25% from the prior quarter. In 2023, WWE was absorbed into an umbrella company called TKO Holdings, which owns the UFC. Also very successful, worth $20 billion. WWE currently tours the world to sell out crowds in Europe, Australia, and Saudi Arabia, where they are in the midst of a multi-year deal to bring shows to the kingdom as part of its attempt to improve its image, boost tourism. This deal with the Saudis is estimated to be worth in excess of $10 billion over the life of the deal. Finally, in January of 2024, Netflix paid approximately $5 billion to stream WWE shows on its platform. So the point I'm trying to make here is when we're talking about WWE, we are not talking about a bunch of hicks watching men in spandex pretending to fight. We are talking about a highly successful, disgustingly profitable, very slickly operated, publicly traded, global entity that is worth more than the GDP of some countries, and which in terms of its cultural impact has been nothing short of a phenomenon across the world since the 1980s. No one listening to this podcast doesn't know who Hulk Hogan is, right? Yeah. No one listening to this doesn't know, it doesn't isn't unfamiliar with the phrase Hulkermania. There's a good number of people listening to this podcast who know that Dwayne Johnson, the big Hollywood, you know, star, was formerly Yeah. Damn you. Uh was formerly The Rock, Dwayne The Rock Johnson. Um he launched his his his career as a as a pro wrestling megastar. Um John Cena, who is basically supplanting Dwayne Johnson as the Hollywood's go-to action guy, also like what is he, like 20-time WWE champion or something, made his name wrestling. And the guy who's who's more sort of low-key, but I is is easily the best actor of any of these guys, Dave Batista, who was in um controversial.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, oh, he he's very good. He's actually a good actor. Like he's been in some good. I mean, yes, he was in the the Marvel films as Drax and he's just, you know, this Hulking, whatever. But good comic timing, multi-time world champion, made his name in WWE. There's massive Hollywood crossover, and that's because WWE is showbiz, right? It's big business, it's glitz, it's glamour, mass popular appeal. And that's why Trump's understanding of it is important because Trump's whole political career has basically been a TV show, all right? He doesn't do policy, he does content. Scandals, wars, spats with other nations, tariffs, ignoring the constitution, hiring characters for the show like RFK and Rudy Giuliani, right? All these things are part of the Trump show. And it's because he sees the world through the the world of ratings. In his first reign, in particular, he talked a lot about ratings. He talks a lot about, you know, oh well, I may I may look bad doing this, but the ratings were huge, etc. And the success of the Trump show, like professional wrestling, is dependent on one thing. And that is the audience being willing to suspend their disbelief and accept that this man, who, as mentioned, clearly unqualified to be president, is nonetheless the president. And it's that same suspension of disbelief that allows someone watching wrestling to look at it and go, well, those punches clearly aren't landing. It's clearly not real. But I'm gonna believe that wrestler A is beating the shit out of wrestler B. Exact same thing. Trump is a is not a real politician, wrestlers are not real fighters. But as we'll get into, Trump has understood that from day one. And he has understood, like wrestlers do, that if you can manipulate the public to make them believe that what they're seeing is real, then you can be incredibly successful. So there's a lot to cover here. Um and in this first episode, just to just to break down how we're gonna break this up, this first episode, we're gonna be focusing more on the man from whom Trump learned this dark art of audience manipulation, that being Vince McMahon. We're gonna talk about Trump's involvement in McMahon's wrestling empire, how that involvement contributed to the renaissance of Trump in the mid-aughts, paving the way for his presidential run in 2016. And then in the next episode, we're gonna talk more about how Trump took what he learned about wrestling and the psychology of wrestling and has applied it to his two terms of office at the White House. So, are we ready?

SPEAKER_01

I don't know. I don't there is just so much and so much bad stuff. But you know, that's why we're here, right?

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. And we all look, if this goes three episodes, it goes three. I don't know. We're gonna try to keep it to two. We'll see how we go. But as you say, I mean, yeah, each of these guys could have like a 12-part episode on.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah, easily. And it's it's I think it's been hard to select what to talk about. Uh there's just so many. And I'm at the point now where you know I wake up every day and think, oh, if Trump hasn't done something outrageous, then I'm quite disappointed.

SPEAKER_00

It it'd be weird if there wasn't some new, you know, thing. And to be honest, Vince McMahon is not as prolific in his output of outrageous behaviour, but for a time there, he was giving him a run for his money.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, we'll we'll get onto that. We'll get into that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. But let's start with with Vinnie Mack and where he comes from and how the similarities between him and Trump are are quite apparent. Um, and why they've always got along so well. And I'll say this from the off that that a lot of people who worked with Vince McMahon throughout his life, close confidants, a lot of them have said words to the effect of Vince McMahon is basically Trump with manners, um, which is uh an interesting thing to keep in mind as we go through this. So, Vincent Kennedy McMahon was born on the 24th of August, 1945. Trump was born on the 14th of June 1946, so they are basically born at the same time. He grew up in a trailer park in North Carolina. That's something that Vince has has not advertised. He presents himself very much as this Northeastern uh elite. Connecticut is his is his stomping grounds, New York is his stomping grounds, but no, he grew up in in North Kakalaki. He lived with his mother and his stepfather, who was physically and possibly sexually abusive towards him. Vince doesn't talk too much about his childhood, but on the rare occasion he has. He has expressed a desire, a wish that he had the opportunity to murder his stepfather.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, that's a red flag right there, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, it tells you something, doesn't it? Clearly, not a happy childhood. Vince has also said in interviews that growing up, he was a tough kid. You know, he was always brawling, getting into trouble. That appears to be nonsense. A testament from people who knew him said that he was actually quite a quiet and introverted, kind of awkward, weird kid. And this is one of many instances throughout Vince's life where you see him trying to project this tough guy image. Um, he's currently, what is he, 80 years old, something like that. And two years ago, he was posting videos of himself working out like deadlifting a disgustingly large amount of weight at about 3 a.m. with a personal trainer. And I'm gonna put a photo up here of Vince. This was a photo from I think 2003. And so he's still an old man here. This is him, you know, posing with a chain around him. This is this is male insecurity manifest right here. That's that's what that is.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's it's impressive and also a bit gross, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and impressive and a bit sad. There's a sadness to it. Like, like if again, if you've sort of followed Vince's career, you know that this is a guy who who is very much he has masculinity issues, I think is the polite way to put it. You know, he's always trying to project that he is this superman, right? And he's actually said on a few occasions he intends to live forever. And I do not doubt him for one second.

SPEAKER_01

What's the secret? Is is he money?

SPEAKER_00

Money. I mean, I mean, I mean, he's gonna he's if there's if there's a way to to freeze yourself, to preserve yourself, you know, head in a jar, a la futurama, Vince is gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01

I'm I'm just I'm pr I'm gonna I'm gonna predict this now that he is not gonna live forever. I it's I'm we don't want I'm not certain.

SPEAKER_00

I am not certain of that. Well, we don't want it, but I am not certain of that because do not underestimate Vince McMahon. Anyway, so yeah, again, we're seeing so we're already seeing some similarities to Trump. After his stepfather walked out on the family, Little Vinny was reunited with his real father, Vince McMahon Sr., who was the son of a quite successful boxing promoter called Jess McMahon. And Vince McMahon Sr. had transitioned from the world of boxing that his his father had done into the world of wrestling. And he was the owner of a thing called the Worldwide Wrestling Federation, which young Vince Vince Jr. starts working for in his 20s. He becomes a commentator for that. Uh, it gets uh cut down to World Wrestling Federation. And this is in the 70s and 80s. Vince is a natural-born entrepreneur, right? Um, he he always had ambitions to take over the company uh to make it bigger and better than what it was. And so in 1982, he purchased it from his dad. He then embarked quite swiftly on a ruthless, hyper-aggressive takeover of the entire North American wrestling business. Now, just to explain that, today WWE is the global hegemon of wrestling. It wasn't always that way. Back in the 60s and 70s, early 80s, you have this thing called the territories, which are smaller wrestling companies that operate within territories across the United States. There's a there's a territory in the Mid-Atlantic region, there's a territory in Memphis, there's one up in Portland, Oregon, and the territory that the McMahons control is uh roughly referred to as New York. It's it's upstate New York, it's it's New York City, it's Connecticut. And what Vince does is he comes in and he completely throws out the norms that had dictated how these territories had worked for decades, which was we're rivals, but we sometimes work together, we stay out of each other's patches. He just goes, fuck that. I'm gonna buy up all your talent, your best wrestlers, I'm gonna bring them to New York, I'm gonna destroy each and every one of you, I'm gonna absorb your territories, I'm gonna, I'm gonna lowball you on deals to buy you out, and I'm gonna create a a monopoly. So again, bit of Trump going on here, right? Uh discard norms, hyper-aggressive business tactics, deals, all for Vince's benefit.

SPEAKER_01

And and and I've, you know, back then it was sort of everything was done in this idea of decency and we don't encroach on what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00

Handshake agreements.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, handshake agreements. And and here he is steamrolling his way through. And it's any wonder from this point how he managed to get people on his side, and of course, that comes down to money.

SPEAKER_00

Well, yes, yes, completely. I mean, because he's he's throwing money around to buy up some of the biggest talent uh uh in North America. The uh centerpiece of his promotion and this and this raids as they've become known in wrestling history was by a guy by the name of Hulk Hogan, who was wrestling up for the um American Wrestling Association in Minnesota. He is bought in by Vince to be his top star. There's a great story, which I think has been confirmed. It was a rumor for some time that it's been confirmed that these wrestling promoters they actually get together at one point in a sort of mafia style meeting, and they put together money to get a hitman to kill Vince because they think he is basically gonna put them completely. Well, the way the way the way these territories worked, it was like a mafia. It was like this secret society. So that's the stakes involved here. Vince perseveres though. He he he gets through this, he uh does not get assassinated, he does create his monopoly, and on the 31st of March 1985, he brings all this together by convening an event that is going to become a cultural phenomenon, and again, a a word that everyone knows today: WrestleMania. The first WrestleMania is held in Madison Square Garden in 1985. This is not just a wrestling show. Vince conceives of this from the start as not just getting a bunch of guys together to grapple, he brings in Mr. T, who's one of the biggest TV stars of the era with the A-Team and everything. Uh, brings him in to tag with Hulk Hogan in the main event. He gets Muhammad fucking Ali to referee that that event. Sydney, Cindy Lauper, who is massive on MTV at this time as a pop star, she comes in and does a whole angle. She's, you know, takes to wrestling like a fish to water. She's really good at this. It was by design a cultural crossover event. It was entertainment rather than wrestling that Vince was going for. And it's an objectively terrible wrestling show. Even wrestling fans will say this is just really bad. But it was a massive success because no one had ever seen anything like this before. And it's so successful that he he does it again in in 1986. We have WrestleMania 2, which again is a terrible show, still makes a lot of money. But then the real the real turning point is WrestleMania 3 in 1987 at the Pontiac Silverdome, which is a massive event. And I remember this as a child. This was the event because of the main event, which pitted the unstoppable, you know, 1980s manifestation of steroids and and and Americana and muscles and everything else, Hulk Hogan versus Andre the Giant, you know, 550 pounds, seven foot tall, never been defeated, um, never been body slammed, complete nonsense. He'd been defeated, you've been body slammed many times.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, there's like so much mythology, right?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, completely, completely. And the biggest myth of all, and this again is an important correlation to Trump, is that Vince goes on the mic at this event. I'm gonna put a photo up here of it. You can see it's it's astonishing, like looking at this, at this arena. It's so impressive, so evocative. And he claims that that crowd is 93,000, which you can believe looking at it, right? It wasn't. It was about 75,000, but he felt the need to inflate that figure to make it. I I think the claim was it was the biggest uh indoor attendance, indoor attendance event for any event in in North America. And this record stood for however many years. Um, and this is Trump and his his inauguration rallies, you know, that in the first reign of Trump, it was there was the biggest inauguration event ever, da-da-da, all this stuff. When you when you see the photos, and it's quite obvious that there's no one on the mall at Washington, DC. Doesn't matter. You know, the perception is the reality, which is a uh phrase that, again, confidants of Vincent Man say that was kind of his business by word. This is followed up, WrestleMania 3 is followed up by something called the main event, which is broadcast on NBC. So that's free-to-wear television in February 1988, a rematch between Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant. It is watched by 33 million people. I think that record still stands, that it's the most watched wrestling match in history.

SPEAKER_01

I I don't know, but that's that's an astonishing figure, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

When you think about it today, that you know, WWE today, which is still very successful, I think it's I think maybe like two million people watch its weekly show. There's 33 million, and they're they're tuning in just to watch that match. You know, the rest of the card didn't really matter. It was Hogan and Andre. And what this meant was by the end of the 1980s, Vince McMahon is a player, not just in the wrestling industry, but in the entertainment industry, because he's he's getting specials on free-to-wear television, massive ratings for that. He has transitioned wrestling out of the kind of not niche, it was always very popular in America, but he's transitioned it away from being this sort of pseudo-sport into being a cultural phenomenon, into being showbiz. And with that success comes indulgence. It comes Vince being able to indulge the seedier side of his personality. So uh, Jane, you've got some details on this. What does what does what are the naughty things that Vince gets up to once he becomes empowered?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, again, again, it it it's a struggle to pick. Um, but so it is outrageous that off the back of this incredible success and uh really important time for the company, he gets involved in these absolutely outrageous sleazy scandals pretty much from the off. So um in in the the the late 80s and early 90s, we've got a few kind of headlines that that come and go. And this is the case with all of these that you know, this terrible thing has happened and these accusations are made, but it kind of just sort of goes away. And so, first of all, so we have um Jimmy Snooker, who obviously was incredibly popular, I think was the most successful or most popular.

SPEAKER_00

Second only to Hogan, I'd say, in terms of popularity.

SPEAKER_01

And so we have this situation where he's in a hotel, he's with his girlfriend, female companion, and there's some kind of incident. She's injured. He calls an ambulance. Unfortunately, she she dies pretty soon after from her injuries. And at the time it was suspected homicide. It's like charges, charges weren't pursued, charges weren't pressed.

SPEAKER_00

And one of the reasons it goes away, again, from accounts from the period, is because Vince turns up at I think it's the court off it's the court, I think, not the police. I think it's the court with a briefcase. And it all goes away.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And um as I and and this is I think it this really establishes a pattern of of events, right? So then we have um a couple of years later, so we have the first female referee, Rita Chatterton. She uh makes an allegation that she was raped by Vince. Um she he comes back to that and says, Well, it was consensual.

SPEAKER_00

So he doesn't deny that something happened. No, but he just twists the story around.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, he does. So so it almost like okay, he he's kind of believable. He's he's not denying this outright. But she goes on talk shows and and and her story is out there. But yeah, it it it it feels like almost from the off, people are going, no, surely this this big successful guy, he can't have done something like this. And and she's not taken seriously as as she should have been, and it and it sort of goes away. But then we have uh actually, I just think a a few years ago, um, there was a uh defamation suit against Vince, and um and and there's this big kind of payout uh a few years ago, multi-million settlement, multi-million pound settlement to to her, and it's almost the the admission of guilt, isn't it? Yeah but it again it's throw money on it, it goes away.

SPEAKER_00

It's admission of guilt many years after the fact, and that and that's the thing, like he's able because the the reader chatterton thing is I think 1986, and yeah, it it persists into the early 90s, this court case gets thrown out, but he's able to just kind of glide through it, and this is again very similar to Trump. Trump has had, I think, to date, I think it's 4,000 lawsuits he's been involved in since the 1970s. And it's that Teflon Don thing where it's just like, yeah, whatever, lawsuit, blah blah blah, and just kind of go through it, as well as you know, sexual harassment lawsuits are in there as well. And Trump has got this similar dynamic going on to Vince where he just kind of breezes through it. Settlements can be paid, they can be paid long after the fact when the heat has died down, basically, just to keep these people quiet. And that seems to be what Vince did with Rita Chatterton. There was another another scandal I think worth mentioning, which was the the ring boy allegations of the 1980s, which is that the ring boys, these are these young men who sort of set up the wrestling ring before the event, uh, that they there was an allegation made by one of these ring boys, a kid named Tom Cole, that a ring announcer named Mel Phillips had uh sexually abused him. And uh there were also allegations that uh Vince's right-hand man, who's who's a quite pioneering homosexual wrestler called Pat Patterson, uh, was also involved in this. And this is another sort of scandal that has lingered over WWE for years, but that Vince has always managed to just get, you know, he I think he sent Pat Patterson home for a few years and then brought him back, and that was the end of that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so uh and so he came back, but I think there was another couple of guys who were were who left the company, and that was that. But I don't know, and and and this is this is you know, a few people corroborating that this did actually happen. Um, but it I always find it interesting in every instance, you know, someone withdraws their allegation.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. And again, we can we can only speculate that there's money involved, pressure. I mean, who knows? Who knows how how to explain it? But the fact is that Vince does glide through these and myriad other scandals. Probably the most notable one, which does happen in the 1990s, is the steroid scandal where he's accused of dealing steroids. And if you if you watch WWE this time, it's like, yeah, everyone is on the juice, everyone is jacked up uh beyond all comprehension. Uh, but he manages to weather that as well. And so he gets through all these scandals, he's incredibly successful, he's established WrestleMania as this cross-cultural event. And guess what? Guess who comes sniffing around to get a piece of this action? It's our mate, Donald Trump.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, wow. I never guessed. Who knew? Who knew?

SPEAKER_00

So let's let's talk about Trump for a bit and where he's at at this point. So this is this is real estate mogul, Trump, late 1980s. Trump has always been a wrestling fan. He's attested to this in in multiple interviews that he's always been a wrestling fan, like Vince. Uh, he grew up watching wrestling, liked the same kind of characters as Vince as well, these very sort of glamorous, uh large and life, very brash characters. Um, and at the time that WrestleMania is being established, Trump is running in the same kind of New York business circles as Vince. That appears to be how they met. We don't have a kind of you know origin story for how they first met, but you can assume that, you know, it's that 1980s thing. These guys, and Trump to this day has this. Vince, to his credit, has kind of updated his look a bit, but Trump still gives off that vibe of 1980s greed is good, Gordon Gecko, Wall Street. Yeah, you know, it's big suits and steak dinners and beautiful women on my arms and all that. It's it's that stuff. And and so they're doing they're doing all that in the 1980s. And again, uh there's this 1980s uh context here which is very important. Glitz, glamour, tackiness, right? There's three words that describe 1980s, and both these men love glitz, glamour, and tackiness. They're very crass, very borish, very tacky men for all of their success. I mean, you you see what Trump's done to the White House with all the cheap-looking gold everywhere. Somehow he makes gold look cheap. Like it's a skill, actually.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's like it's his um his diet coke button or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, all that, all that. There's and the McDonald's, you know, all in the McDonald's, like there's just something so white trash about both men. And you could see how they could have got along. And they're also they they're attracted to success, they're attracted to money. And Vince is successful, Vince has got money, Trump wants in on that. And so on the 27th of March, 1988, WrestleMania 4 takes place in Atlantic City from the Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino, or so we're told. All right. The Trump, yeah, just to talk a little bit about the Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino, it's one of the many hotel complexes and casinos that Trump owns at this time, and it's just as trashy a place as it sounds. Um, if you can imagine that scene in Back to the Future 2, I think, where Biff Tannan's got his big tower and there's like bikers circling around it. That that's that's what we're talking about here. Okay. In fact, I think I think um the uh I've forgotten I've forgotten who made Back to the Future now, but whoever made it was it Robert Zemeckas? Anyway, um uh has gone on record as saying that, yeah, Trump was the sort of inspiration for that uh character, the the Biff Tannan in the alternate timeline. And you can see it when you when you think about 1980s Trump. Um so anyway, the Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino is one of his many failed ventures. I think it finally folded in 2014, but at this time it's it's kind of newly established. He wants to get it out there. I'm gonna put up a a photo here now. This is Macho Man Randy Savage with Donald Trump at WrestleMania 4, part of the promotion for this. Great photo, really encapsulates what we're talking about here.

SPEAKER_01

It's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00

Very 1980s. Yeah, I fucking love the macho man so much. He was he was my favorite. I was always a macho man guy, never never got into Hogan. Macho Man and Jake the Snake Roberts, those are my guys. Okay, but anyway, this is a this is a promo pick, and it and it tells you that this event is emanating from the Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino. And this is a lie. Uh, it didn't emanate from the Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino. Um, and that's because that that building didn't have a hall big enough to host it. So instead, this thing is actually held in this place called the Atlantic City Convention Hall. I'll put up a pick of that here. It is this big, soulless, shitty looking building, kind of like a giant aircraft hangar, basically. Really quite, quite awful. They've got, they've put up a, they put up this, you know, big, but again, quite tawdry looking banner that says it's WrestleMania 4. They put up banners saying Trump Plaza, again, just openly lying about where it is. And it's because it's a branding exercise, right? It's a branding exercise for Trump to take this event and kind of co-brand it, which has been a big part of of Trump's whole business strategy. You know, Trump vodka, Trump University, Trump, you know, toilet paper, Trump griddles. I don't know. Whatever it is he's selling, it's Trump this, Trump that. And this is the start of that. So this is Trump's WrestleMania, right? Um, the venue looks terrible. The event itself has a lot of co-branding. It's all style, it's all, it's no substance. This was reflected in the crowd. A lot of the crowd are actually like Trump's mates, local businessmen, people with comp tickets, probably a few mobsters as well, because it's Atlantic City. Um, it is not an energetic and engaged crowd. And when you watch it, you can see like these people are watching it and they're going, we're not really sure what we're watching, but hey, we're getting free shrimp cocktails and booze, so we've come along. You know, that's kind of what it is. Very 80s. Yeah, gotta have shrimp cocktails. And amongst these unengaged attendees was Trump himself, who is pictured at various points in the broadcast in the front row. He he's not there the whole time because he's too he's he's not engaged enough. Uh, he's 42 years old at this time. He's married to Ivana Trump, not to be confused with Ivanka, their daughter, who's quite known today. Uh, Ivana Trump was another model and socialite of Eastern European origin, like Trump's wife today. Um, at this time, she was given the job of actually running Trump Plaza, so no surprise it didn't make any money because she had no qualifications for yeah, he was just like, hey, run this. Uh, and and she didn't do well. Their marriage broke down in 1990, and this is an interesting little tidbit. The marriage broke down in 1990, and Trump had an affair with a lady named Marla Marples, who is another sort of C list model and actress, who was a guest at WrestleMania 7 that Trump was in attendance to. So it seems that he kind of hooked up with her at WrestleMania, and that created the the end of his marriage. So WrestleMania and love, who knew? Um, WrestleMania 4, cheap-looking tawdry event that was purely a promotional vehicle for Trump. Um, it's widely regarded by wrestling fans as one of the worst WrestleManias, despite Randy Savage defeating Ted D.B. in the main event, which I always remember as a child very fondly. First time Hulk Hogan doesn't win the belt at the end of WrestleMania. It's quite quite an iconic moment. 19,000 people, decent crowd, 1.4 million dollars in ticket sales. This was down a lot, though, from WrestleMania 3, you know, with its you know, just looks so much bigger. Uh, and this is the Trump effect. It's this sort of cheap carny impersonation of what WrestleMania, the standard set for WrestleMania the prior year. Here's the thing though, although it's a bomb, Trump and McMahon run it back. The next year, WrestleMania 5, they do exactly the same thing. And it's funny watching the two events, you could be confused that you're watching the same event because it looks exactly the same. They've done nothing, like there's been no effort put in. It's in the same awful venue, it looks the same. They've just replaced the cheap banner. They might have even just taken the the the one off the four and just made it a five. I don't know. Like, like it's yeah, it's so and and it's the same disinterested crowd, same bitter taste in the mouth, particularly for this young fan, because Hogan wins the bell back from Savage in the main event. I'm just like, God damn it.

SPEAKER_01

Anyway, your your your angry letters writing in clearly were not effectual.

SPEAKER_00

Just one of Hulk Hogan's best matches, incidentally. Okay, because Randy Savage carried that thing. Damn good wrestler. Anyway, look, I I could I'm not gonna go down that rabbit hole. We're gonna stay on stay on focus here.

SPEAKER_01

Um I I've got a question though. So I mean why yes, it's a sort of technically a commercial success, but if you know, if if it looks lackluster, why just stick with it and do it again? Surely they're looking at it as businessmen going, okay, that wasn't so great. We can improve on that, but no.

SPEAKER_00

Well, well, I think that they make a deal for a two at two events, unless it's a complete disaster. I think the deal was for two events. And again, these two guys are friends. Like, this is this is what's interesting about the relationship between these two. Trump has a reputation for using people, for you know, making making friends with people, discarding them when they become a liability. That's never happened with Vince McMahon. These two men have always got along. Uh, there's never seems to have been a falling out, they've always been on the same page. And so I think they if Trump can genuinely like a human being, and that's a big if, it's probably Vince McMahon. I I'd I'd say that, knowing the similarities between the two men. So as much as it's business, I think they're also having a bit of a laugh. Because remember, you know, these two guys are kind of in their heyday, right? This is this is you know, this is this is a bit of bit a bit of bit of fun for them. Yeah. And it it does make enough money to justify having it again. Um, and and again, there's money being exchanged between the two men because you know, Trump is paying for the promotion.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

He's paying to to have it branded as as a Trump Plaza event. So and it doesn't really matter to to Vince McMahon so long as the WrestleMania train keeps going. And particularly, you know, with Hogan getting the belt back again, it's you know, we're all we're all back on track and everything's everything's everything's apples. Not so much for Donald Trump, though, because the 1990s he gets into a bit of a nadea in some respects. The hotels and the various business ventures, they start a lot of them start collapsing. He files for bankruptcy. I think he he's to date filed for bankruptcy on six different occasions, could be could be more than that, but it's at least six. Starting in 1991, 1992, that's when the that starts. And it's because of investments, because there's other hotels he owns in Atlantic City as well that all fall apart. Atlantic City becomes like this, you know, death spiral investment place, it becomes this hellhole. Um, it was meant to be like the new sort of Vegas, right? That was that was the whole thing. It doesn't really work. The Art of the Deal, his famous book comes out in 1987, and that does make some money. But again, I as most people will point out, it's a bit of a hollow tiger, uh paper tiger. That's the expression I'm looking for, book, because it's it's sort of ghostwritten, and it's it's coming out at a time when the lie of Trump being the big successful businessman is starting to be revealed. These bankruptcies, as I say, come along with a hell of a lot of lawsuits, uh, which just adds to the pile of things going wrong. Um, and so he needs a new grift in the 1990s, and that grift is entertainment, right? He's in a couple of films, isn't he? Or he makes cameos at least.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, oh, it's ridiculous, yeah. He so he plays himself because he's no actor, or maybe I don't know. Um, so he's in a whole raft of films and TV shows as himself, usually as as Donald Trump or as the rich businessman. So um I and I remember him from Home Alone 2. He he appears in that, and then um the the the clip that recently resurfaced and and did the rounds when he's like in drawing the rumble's cup, you know, he's he's drawing the the football and he has no idea what he's doing, he's saying the names of the teams, no clue, but he just kind of gets drafted in in like the hotel lobby and yeah, and it's it's all the setup and it's all kind of really awkward and and and fake, but I think he genuinely um he's he's believing in his own gimmick so much by this point that he's like, I'm gonna play myself in everything and and I'm gonna get myself out there on TV and and in Hollywood and ingratiate myself.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's it's when he sort of pivots in the 1990s from from the the Trump name being on things to Trump himself being the product. Yeah, that's kind of what happens. Yeah, and that reaches its um um pinnacle in the the biggest role he plays, uh his pivot from you know failing businessman into successful entertainment figure in a show called The Apprentice, which runs from uh 2004 to 2015. I never watched, did you ever watch The Apprentice? I never watched it.

SPEAKER_01

I did, yeah. So I I watched it when I was when I was younger, because that's obviously what kids watch. Um But I I really enjoyed that show, and to be honest, I was I wasn't really aware that he was a part of that show, um, you know, watching it in the UK, so it's quite different. But um, but yeah, and it and it and it makes sense that he would want to be somewhat a focal point on that show, I think.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, because the whole the whole thing, the premise of the show for those who don't know is that you you get you know a successful businessman who sort of you know uh takes wannabe entrepreneurs under their wing or something like that. That's basically it. And the whole thing was a gimmick, it was engineered as a gimmick from the start. And in preparation for this show, I watched some clips of because I say I never watched it when it first ran. I watched some clips, and as a wrestling fan, the first thing I notice is he is in gimmick the whole time, and it's the gimmick that he's still got to get today. The long red tie starts appearing at this point. Yeah, the overcoat, which he still busts out, that comes, and that's because he's getting fat at this point. That overcoat, you know, hides the blubber. Uh, he's got the the those sort of boxy suits he still wears, which again hides the fat. That the hair, which has become iconic, that starts to kick in at this time. This, you know, hair that he's clearly bought somewhere. That's that's that starts to kick in. And then he's got a catchphrase, all right? Just like Holcomania's running wild and Austin 316 says, I just whooped your ass, you're fired. That's the catchphrase, right? And it's become absolutely iconic with the finger and everything. Yeah, he's got he's got gestures with the catchphrase. It's wrestling. And the producer of the show, Mark Burnett, has has stated this outright that he approached Trump specifically because he saw this guy as kind of like this this piece of clay that could well was already molding himself, but could be further molded into a fictionalized version of himself. Basically, the volume turned up to 11. And any pro wrestler, any successful pro wrestler uh will say this that the they their success comes when they take themselves and they just turn the volume up to 11. Steve Austin, for example, uh Stone Cold Steve Austin, biggest, probably the biggest star in wrestling. I'd say probably made more money than Hulk Hogan. He was massive in the late 90s, early aughts. Um, the real life man, Steve Williams, he is a beer-drinking redneck from Texas. Stone Cold Steve Austin was a beer-drinking redneck from Texas, who also you know filled up Vince McMahon's Corvette with cement. Um, he also used forklifts to attack his opponents. He flipped off the crowd with with middle fingers.

SPEAKER_01

And didn't he pour beer over him?

SPEAKER_00

Poured beer over him, drank beer in the ring all the time to sort of celebrate victories. Um he was uh drove all-terrain vehicles to the ring. You know, he he was he was that guy. He was Steve Williams, the beer-drinking Texas redneck with the volume turned up a little. And that's what Trump's doing on The Apprentice. He is Trump the businessman in gimmick costume, uh, with with the essence of him distilled into this thing that Burnett knows he can make money off. And he does make money off. And so does Trump, as a matter of fact. Trump is estimated to have made about $200 million off The Apprentice. It's a massive amount of money. Wow. Um, and and this is again when the when the branding really starts coming in. I think Trump University comes around this time, which is one of one of the for so many reasons, one of the great sort of sick jokes of this uh saga. Trump ham slicers, trump bin liners, trump, trump whatever. You know, it's whatever he's trying to shill, it gets Trumped at this time because he's got the gimmick to shift merchandise. And again, this is what wrestlers do. They they they establish their gimmick and they shift merchandise. Hulk Hogan infamously had uh, what was it, pasta mania back in the 80s, like this horrible pasta that was I think there were restaurants that were.

SPEAKER_01

It was like a burger place, right? There was yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, this is and and they're all awful, it completely terrible because you know, when you think of Hulk Hogan, you think of, you know, you know, carb dense, you know, fatty food. Obviously, look at the man. He obviously eats a lot of pasta like it's just it's it's ridiculous. But this is this is what Trump is doing, you know, in the same way that that wrestlers have, you know, t-shirts and hats and and foam uh title belts, he's creating a branding enterprise around the Trump gimmick. So he's in the he is in this midst of this renaissance in the early odds. And like Vince in the 1980s, when he's riding high, Trump starts to feel empowered to do some very bad things. What's what's he get up to? What what comes out of the apprentice at this time?

SPEAKER_01

Again, there's so much. So uh I know you mentioned um earlier the producers on the show, like, okay, we need To we need to turn up the volume on various things. And I think that gives him license to start doing some incredibly dodgy stuff. Um, as with most I suppose, TV productions, there's there's clauses in the contract around what you can and can't do, um, relationships with contestants in this case. Um but he starts to believe the the character that you've built around him, and he he's inviting contestants back to his mansion or his whatever, you know. And and he's repeatedly told that's that's not cool. You you you shouldn't be doing that, it's crossing the line. He's like, I don't care, you know, I'm I'm I'm the the face of this thing. So he's inviting people back to his house, spending time personally with contestants, thinking he's gonna be able to.

SPEAKER_00

Female contestants, right?

SPEAKER_01

There's a mixture, but primarily, primarily. So um he owned the rights to Miss Universe at this time, and and it's sort of connected with with the the show in this era anyway. But he he's there's been so many allegations since that he is going to the the Miss World Pageants because he's a big name on TV, everyone knows and loves him. And he's going to the Miss World Pageants. Um, he's going in the women's dressing rooms whilst they're naked because he feels like he's got permission, he's got the right to just walk around um and look at whatever and and touch whatever. And and and and this has sort of come out in more recent years, the the allegations that he was that he was doing this. Um and around the same time we have the the infamous case with uh the the porn actress Stormy Daniels. I think everyone probably is familiar with that name. I was all over the news for a time, but um essentially they they meet in sort of social circles, they have an affair of of of some kind, although I think she says they only had sex once, but they had this sort of relationship. Um but he he promises her to uh get her on the show. I'll make sure you go further on this show than anyone else, I'll make you successful, but that didn't happen. Um, so there's been a whole raft of defamation suits and and accusations. Um, she accuses that Trump and his lawyers intimidated her, uh, and there's been payoffs, and there's there's been some money changing hands. So uh and and this is really uh just a small part of the a huge amount of allegations that have come out about Trump in in this period. I think it's it's somewhere in the region of sort of like 30 different people of of alleged uh sexual misconduct against him around this time of The Apprentice.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, it does all kind of stem from this period. Some of them are still being dealt with to this day, I think. And it it's again, it's eerily similar to what happens with Vince in the 1980s, where you you get the power, you get the entitlement, and you just go, you know what? I can do whatever the hell I want. And like Vince, you know, uh Teflon Don, he gets through this. Trump's riding high in the early aughts. Vince is also riding high. I mentioned before that the WWE goes public in uh '99. By the early 2000s, he's he's wiped out his competition. Uh, the the rival biggest wrestling company, World Championship Wrestling. He actually buys that for a song. I think it's like $20 million or something, because he completely, you know, like he did with the territories, he just grinds them into dust. He's got The Rock, who I mentioned before, is massive, he's blowing up massive stars. He's starting to transition to Hollywood, he's got Stone Cold, Steve Austin. Um, enormous business is being done. WWE has has uh had has become more of a cultural phenomenon, arguably, than it was in the 80s. Um those Austin 316 shirts were everywhere back at this time. His black shirt with just Austin 316 written on it again, catchphrase.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So it's it's a time of of great success for both men, and so they reunite to make some more money. And in 2007, Trump returns to professional wrestling, this time in a far more active sense at WrestleMania 23 at Ford Field in Detroit for an event called the Battle of the Billionaires, which is interesting in the branding because it's both men flaunting their wealth. You know, we are both billionaires. And this was actually a big thing on TV that the commentators were told every week to talk about Vince as a billionaire. And his daughter, Stephanie McMahon, who became an on-air character, she was referred to as the billionaire princess. So that this was again, Vince is reveling in this at this time. He brings Trump in, who is also at the height of his popularity with The Apprentice, brings him in. And it's it's a big sort of you know it it's a celebration of both men's wealth and and and power. And this battle of the billionaires, I'll put the put the poster for WrestleMania 23. Um and what you see here is you know Trump, and again, Trump's, you know, doing the point. Um pink tie this time, but it's it's it's Trump versus Vince, and it's a hair versus hair stipulation. Now, obviously, neither of these men are actually going to get in the ring, thank God. Um Trump, to give him his due, he does have a sense of self-preservation because uh Vince McMahon, again, you know, he's in his 70s, uh 60s, 70s at this point, whatever it is, his 60s, I think it is. Um he would beat the absolute shit out of Donald Trump because he is he is jacked to the gills. So, but but they don't do that. Instead, they have surrogates. Uh behind Trump is a wrestler named Bobby Lashley, um, and behind Vince is a guy called Umaga. And in and they are going to wrestle on their behalf. And in between, you see Stone Cold Steve Austin, who is who is in uh he's retired at this point. I think he is gonna be the guest referee. So this is a star-packed main event. And the loser, if if if if if Umaga wins, then Trump has to have his hair, head shaved. If Bobby Lashley wins, then Vince has to have his head shaved. Um, one man has real hair, the other doesn't. So the stakes are not so high for both. But regardless, you know, this is this is the big event, right? And what's interesting about this is that Trump is portrayed as the baby face here. And just to get into some pro-wrestling terminology, babyface means the good guy, right? That's Hulk Hogan. Uh, and Vince McMahon is the heel, the bad guy. And this is because Vince has become an on-air character in the 1990s. He's become this character called Mr. McMahon, who again, like Trump on The Apprentice, it's Vince McMahon, but with the volume turned up. And it's the worst aspects of Vince McMahon's uh natural character amplified to outrageous extremes. The McMahon character, do you want to explain the Mr. McMahon character? What it what it is at its essence?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I I I you're probably best positioned to to to explain that to be fair, but I'm gonna throw it back to you immediately with a question that he he is this crazy larger than and he comes on with this like ridiculous walk, right? Destruct yeah, like he's shoulder shoulders first, right? Um, and he he does some crazy stuff as that character. Um, you know, he's this this ruthless billionaire, as as we said, to emphasize that, but you know, including like there's one where he gets blown up in his limousine, and he's doing some ridiculous things. So yes, the character is is larger than life, but at any point, it is it too much?

SPEAKER_00

Is he doing stuff that's just like okay, that's a bit that's that's more than entertainment, that's just well there is there is one story which has has actually been corroborated by Vince's daughter, Stephanie, that he Vince pitched an incest angle. An angle just for again, wrestling terminology is a storyline, it's it's the it's the wrestling storyline. So Vince actually pitched this idea of having a storyline where the the on-screen character, Mr. McMahon, is involved in an incestuous relationship with his daughter. Again, if we think about some of the things Trump has said about his daughter, there's some creepy parallels here, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, and this was shot down because the people around Vince's advisors, like, hell no, we are not uh like that is too far. And and Stephanie herself has confirmed this and said, No, and I and I said, I am not comfortable doing this, dad. And Stephanie herself is a bit of an out there character, and even she was like, No, no, this is stupid. Um, but he, I mean, he did, he did, you know, other stuff as well, which really tapped into that kind of sleaze that that Trump is involved in at this time. Um, one of them is, and I'll put an image up here of him with uh a wrestler, a female wrestler by the name of Trish Stratus, who was a you know very attractive wrestler. She was a former, I think, fitness model. And here you see Vince sort of towering over her, and she is in her underwear, and that's because live on live television, she has been stripped to her underwear, and he is barking on the microphone to her. He's saying, You are gonna bark like a dog for me. Yeah, this is entertainment, right? This is this is this is what Vince. So some really nasty stuff just does pass through the senses because Vince is the ultimate boss, right? He he what he decides goes, and yes, he was talked down from the incest angle, but some of the stuff which you can tell is him working through his own issues, let's call it that. And does come on the TV.

SPEAKER_01

And and and in in her case, she she's held pretty firm over the years and said, actually, no, I was comfortable doing it because I knew it was part of the storyline and I was gonna get retribution and she did yeah, and and you know, and and I'm comfortable with it, and but yeah, it's in that era of some pretty pretty sus stuff happening.

SPEAKER_00

Oh yeah, like with Bra and Panties matches where women, you know, basically have to strip down to their to their underwear to fight in sometimes in mud in mud uh pits, you know.

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm. All the good stuff. Um and and when when was the lap dance, the infamous lap dance, to become this?

SPEAKER_00

That's around that's around I can't remember specifically. It's around this time. To be honest, it's around the time I kind of tuned out and stopped watching for a bit because it got it got a bit it just got too much. Uh, but yeah, I mean there's there there was a Vince's offside, uh a guy who was in charge of talent relations, he was given specific orders at this time to find female wrestlers out of like modeling catalogues, and they have to be size 10. There is nothing in this requirement that they know about wrestling, have any athletic aptitude, um, want to be in wrestling, it's just find me attractive size 10 women who we can put on TV and pretend they're wrestlers.

SPEAKER_01

And and cheerleaders, right? And they're cheerleading.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, cheerleaders and and just women who have no interest in wrestling, they just want to be on TV and they're exploited as such. And this was uh this was part of WWE's culture, and this has come out. I mean, the the culture now is a lot different. You actually have female wrestlers who can wrestle, who are respected, who are not objectified, um, at least not to the extent that they were. They still wear pretty skimpy outfits, a lot of them, but it's not quite to the extent um that that it was. Well, it's not even near the extent that it was. When you look back at some of this stuff, I mean that that phrase did not age well. Uh that's that does not suffice to explain the kind of things that Vince is putting on TV at this time. And so this is why, this is why Vince McMahon is the heel in this in this thing, back to WrestleMania. This is why he's the heel, because he's portrayed as this you know disgusting, sleazy, um uh hyper-aggressive businessman, yeah, who the kind of person you detest. And to WWE's credit, they do position him as a bad guy. Like he is a bad guy when he's doing these bad things. Trump, by contrast, is positioned as the baby face, right? He's the good guy. He comes out to the ring in the build-up to this match at WrestleMania and he yells at Vince about how you know you don't give the people what they want, and then he kind of clicks his fingers and money rains down onto the crowd. And again, it's you know, I have wealth to burn and I make everyone happy and all this, which is when you think about the political promise-making that Trump does, it it's very similar. So, the outcome of the match, I'll put a picture up here of Trump shaving Vince's head. Um, uh, it uh Trump was never gonna get his head shaved on national television. Vince, to his credit, was quite happy to you know put himself in the firing line for for business. There's also another interesting image I want to put up here, and this is a meme that came out a lot later where and it shows foot and so still of footage of Trump actually getting physically involved in the match. And if you watch it on on YouTube, whatever I mean, physically involved is being generous. Trump kind of you know blunderfucks his way around the ring and sort of stumbles into Vince um and and rains some fake punches down on him. But again, I Trump has said that he loved doing this, like loved getting getting involved in this, and loved shaving Vince's head and the whole the whole ridiculousness of it. But what you see in this meme is this was this was uh done by some MAGA account or something where they they imposed CNN onto Vince's head, and this is you know Trump beating up CNN. Uh, this was in the first uh Trump, the Trump's first reign. So it uh it's interesting, you know, that that that that got reused, but this is one of the few occasions where you see Trump actually getting physical. He as a rule, you know, he projects a sort of you know aggressive character, but you know, doesn't do violence. Vince, by contrast, you know, does a lot of violence. He gets he's in a lot of matches where he gets bloodied, where he you know beats people with chairs, all kinds of stuff. But here, Trump is triumphant, shaves Vince's head. And this is the moment where I think in retrospect, we can see the Trump image fully fleshed out on WWE TV, the Trump image that we have today, this brash, confident, wealthy, aggressive, violent, as I say, uh uh domineering, and above all else, successful person, right? Trump comes out of WrestleMania 23 looking like the ultimate winner, the guy who bested Vince McMahon, who had been for WWE fans, he had been the biggest, baddest, most impressive, bad guy, most impressive heel in WWE's constructed universe. And here's Trump besting him. And he does this in front of a crowd, as I say, at Ford Field in Detroit, of 74,000 people who cheer him wildly when he attacks Vince. It's watched by 1.2 million people just in the States, God knows how many more across the world. It's it was the most watched WWE event, like uh pay-per-view event of all time up to this point. Uh, and it held that record until uh 2012 when WrestleMania 28 surpassed it. And Trump being involved is probably a big part of that. So this was a massive audience for Trump, the fully gimmicked wrestling persona to perform of, and by all accounts, he performed incredibly well. Uh in 2013, for his efforts, he goes into the Hall of Fame. I'll put a picture up here of Trump and his tuxedo accepting this, the WWE Hall of Fame, which just to explain that is not a real Hall of Fame. It's basically who Vince wants. It's a marketing exercise, it's who Vince wants to honor. There's another former president who is in not the WWE Hall of Fame, but a real wrestling hall of fame. Any guesses as to whom that might be?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I I this is a factoid, I don't know. Like, did they genuinely earn this place? I don't know you guys.

SPEAKER_00

300 300 fights, apparently.

SPEAKER_01

Really?

SPEAKER_00

Abraham Lincoln.

SPEAKER_01

No.

SPEAKER_00

Honest Abe was a grappler. Because again, pro wrestling has been has been around for a long, long time. And this again, this was this was more real wrestling. Again, it was a lot more real in the mid-19th century. But yeah, apparently he had about 300 odd fights, and he is honored in the uh the real wrestling hall of fame, which I think is in is it in Ohio? I'm not sure. But it's it's it's not WWE. So honest Abe is in there.

SPEAKER_01

Oh wow. So is Trump saying, hey, I'm gonna beat his record, and I don't know, I'dn't thought of that before, but that's that's I mean, that's on brand for him, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

Um, but anyway, so so you know, Trump's Trump's WWE Hall of Fame, a big wrestling thing. Um, this sets him in very good stead for the next phase of his career, the political phase, which arguably began back in 2000, actually, when in and here's another wrestling connection WWE commentator, uh legendary commentator in the 1980s, turned governor of Minnesota Jesse Ventura, Jesse the Body Ventura, or Jesse the Mind Ventura as he reinvents. Again, it's all gimmick. He does give he reinvents his gimmick when he becomes a politician. He convinced Trump to run as a candidate for Ross Perot's Reform Party, which was a sort of basically a center-right party with some liberal aspects, you know, uh pretty pretty straight up and down. Uh, this didn't go anywhere, but fun fact today, Jesse Ventura is a very harsh critic of Donald Trump. He has called him the draft dodging coward, um, amongst other things.

SPEAKER_01

What what happened? What happened between them?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, Trump happened. Trump became successful, and and Jesse Ventura, who has always been a kind of weird guy in his politics, like he's a he's a he's a full-blown libertarian, but uh he he I Jesse Ventura is another I wouldn't call him a devil, but he's an interesting guy. He could have a whole episode, he's a really strange guy. But anyway, the point is there's a wrestling connection there from the very start of of Trump getting into politics. Um, and it's that it it doesn't work in 2000, but after he's kind of done The Apprentice, done WrestleMania, returned to WrestleMania on the 16th of June 2015, after a couple of years spent fuming over the fact that this intelligent, charismatic black guy named Barack Obama had become president of the US, Trump in full gimmick, descends from his golden escalator in Trump Towers in New York City, and like Hulk Hogan entering at WrestleMania, declared that he was gonna topple the bad guy and become the Republican presidential nominee. And that is where we'll leave part one. Because goddamn, we we had a lot to go on that on that. Guess what comes next? Yeah, we we will pick this up uh next week in the in the next episode where we will look at the the ongoing influence of wrestling in in Trump's shaping of his presidencies and how he manages to retain power and how he uses the psychology of wrestling. We'll pick that up next week. But uh until then, please like, subscribe, comment, share, do all the things that you are meant to do, and we will see you next week on History's Devils.

Head Shot

James Crossland

Host